White Angus cow at The Iowa State Fair

CAB · Aug 19, 2011

DL said:
CAB said:

The development of the breed came to be like the Red Angus breed.

Click to expand...

Beg to differ - the development of the Red Angus breed was purposeful and designed to require the measurement of commercially important traits - (BTW the first US breed to do so) if you google Red Angus the RAAA comes up - if you google white angus your post shows up first and then you get all sorts of weird things Angus White included - I think he is a guy - calling it a breed doesn't make it a breed - this is a white cow - it would be interesting to look at her DNA to see if she really is Angus...

Please don't kill the messenger DL. I was just trying to relay what the sheet hanging on the front panel had to say about the White Angus heifer/cow that was in the pen. You may possibly want to contact the Avenue of Breeds director for breed clarification & qualification.

DL · Aug 19, 2011

CAB said:
DL said:

CAB said:

The development of the breed came to be like the Red Angus breed.

Click to expand...

Beg to differ - the development of the Red Angus breed was purposeful and designed to require the measurement of commercially important traits - (BTW the first US breed to do so) if you google Red Angus the RAAA comes up - if you google white angus your post shows up first and then you get all sorts of weird things Angus White included - I think he is a guy - calling it a breed doesn't make it a breed - this is a white cow - it would be interesting to look at her DNA to see if she really is Angus...

Click to expand...

Please don't kill the messenger DL. I was just trying to relay what the sheet hanging on the front panel had to say about the White Angus heifer/cow that was in the pen. You may possibly want to contact the Avenue of Breeds director for breed clarification & qualification.

awful touchy aren't we? Guess we are not to question or disagree with anything anything you post - sorry didn't get that message.

I am referring to the statement about the development of the breed came to be like the Red Angus breed - don't know who said that (maybe you or maybe on the card - I really don't care) but IMHO it is hogwash - there is no evidence the cow is an Angus or that there is a white Angus breed so it is nothing like the development of the Red Angus. Let me repeat - the development of the Red Angus breed was purposeful and designed to require the measurement of commercially important traits - if disagreeing with you or something you post is in your opinion shooting the messenger then the problem is yours to fix, not anyone else

olsun · Aug 19, 2011

I read an article in a paper, I believe it was the Des Moines Register, as many as 30 years ago. I think I saved it, but I can't find it now. As I remember the story, a white calf was born in a purebred, but commercial angus herd. When this white heifer was mated to purebred angus bulls she always had white calves. Her offsprings, always white, had white calves when they were mated to pure angus bulls. This has always been a small herd, and no attempt has been made to promote them.They are more of a novelty than a breed, but they are as pure angus as the modern day Shorthorn , Charolais, Maine or any other breed is pure. I personally think it is foolish to make too much of what breed they are. They are white cattle of what was believed to be angus origin. I am just glad that someone has been able to maintain the herd. More power to them, it is kinda neat. Earl

dkttyler · Aug 21, 2011

DL, I'm an angus breeder i've herd of this happening before, personal havn't seen it but the answer to this is.... A Albino calf! It's that simple, instead of culling the white calf off someone played with them and started a "new breed." Now that is ver simlar to how Red Angus got it's start if you've done a bit of looking. The Reds were thought to be not normal.

DL · Aug 22, 2011

dkttyler said:
DL, I'm an angus breeder i've herd of this happening before, personal havn't seen it but the answer to this is.... A Albino calf! It's that simple, instead of culling the white calf off someone played with them and started a "new breed." Now that is ver simlar to how Red Angus got it's start if you've done a bit of looking. The Reds were thought to be not normal.

#1 - this is not an albino cow - she has black around her eyes and pigment in her iris - albinism is characterized by complete lack of melanin http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/conditions.html
#2 - In 1808, Hugh Watson, the father of the modern Aberdeen -Angus breed decided he wanted black cattle not red - it was not that red was considered"abnormal" as you say but a personal decision
#3 - In 1889 the American Aberdeen Angus Assn set a course aimed toward creating a pure black strain of Angus and in 1917 they barred the registration of red animals (allowed previously)
#4 - in 1920 the Wisconsin Exp Station s published The occurrence of red calves in black breeds of cattle - "One more point should be emphasized, namely that the red individuals appearing in such stock (Aberdeen Angus) are just as truly purebred as their black relatives, and there is no reason why, in all respect save color, they should not be fully as valuable. The fact that they are 'discarded" while blacks are retained is simply due to the turn of fortune that black rather than red became established fashion for the Aberdeen Angus breed"
#5 - In 1954 ten individuals formed the RAAA with the goal of "making the Red Angus a useful breed of cattle through careful selection and recording of animals" - performance data was mandatory and this was the first association sponsored performance program
#6- 1980 "Modern Breeds of Livestock" -'In reality the Red Angus is not a distinct breed of cattle but is a selection for a specific color within a long established breed" and it was known for years that 2 blacks could have a red - in fact Hugh Watson knew this

So if you know the history of both the blacks and reds it is clear that black was selected for because of personal preference and that the founders of the RAAA had great foresight and were very successful in reaching their goal

Show Dad · Aug 22, 2011

Not to pick a fight with DL but when did the AAA first state that red was a genetic defect? (In blue collar speak wouldn't that be considered not normal?)

CAB · Aug 22, 2011

DL said:
dkttyler said:

DL, I'm an angus breeder i've herd of this happening before, personal havn't seen it but the answer to this is.... A Albino calf! It's that simple, instead of culling the white calf off someone played with them and started a "new breed." Now that is ver simlar to how Red Angus got it's start if you've done a bit of looking. The Reds were thought to be not normal.

Click to expand...

#1 - this is not an albino cow - she has black around her eyes and pigment in her iris - albinism is characterized by complete lack of melanin http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/conditions.html
#2 - In 1808, Hugh Watson, the father of the modern Aberdeen -Angus breed decided he wanted black cattle not red - it was not that res was considered"abnormal" as you say but a personal decision
#3 - In 1889 the American Aberdeen Angus Assn set a course aimed toward creating a pure black strain of Angus and in 1917 they barred the registration of red animals (allowed previously)
#4 - in 1920 the Wisconsin Exp Station s published The occurrence of red calves in black breeds of cattle - "One more point should be emphasized, namely that the red individuals appearing in such stock (Aberdeen Angus) are just as truly purebred as their black relatives, and there is no reason why, in all respect save color, they should not be fully as valuable. The fact that they are 'discarded" while blacks are retained is simply due to the turn of fortune that black rather than red became established fashion for the Aberdeen Angus breed"
#5 - In 1954 ten individuals formed the RAAA with the goal of "making the Red Angus a useful breed of cattle through careful selection and recording of animals" - performance data was mandatory and this was the first association sponsored performance program
#6- 1980 "Modern Breeds of Livestock" -'In reality the Red Angus is not a distinct breed of cattle but is a selection for a specific color within a long established breed" and it was known for years that 2 blacks could have a red - in fact Hugh Watson knew this

So if you know the history of both the blacks and reds it is clear that black was selected for because of personal preference and that the founders of the RAAA had great foresight and were very successful in reaching their goal

#5, So B4 1954 DL, what was the criteria for Red Angus? I'm just guessing here, but was it that they be red. & isn't that exactly how this White Angus breed will come to be in the future if anyone would care to develop the breed, only it require that the cattle be white instead of being red along with whatever other guidelines and criteria that the developer decides are relevant to the survival of the cattle as a breed?

DL · Aug 22, 2011

SD said:
Not to pick a fight with DL but when did the AAA first state that red was a genetic defect? (In blue collar speak wouldn't that be considered not normal?)

Hey SD - long time no see

No fight here - I have the facts

First I guess it depends on if you believe the AAA and what they say

According to the AAA (Rule 305GF) red is considered a genetic "factor" not a genetic defect -

if people consider red is "abnormal" or "not normal" then all of us with blue eyes better watch out

Rule 350GF: Genetic Factors
The term “genetic factor” refers to the presence of a recessive gene that may or may not produce a certain type of offspring. The Association monitors two genetic factors: the Red Color factor and the Wild Type Color Gene factor. Both are monitored because they may, if present, result in the unintended birth of red calves. While red calves are not eligible for registration under the rules of the Association, they are not defective genetically. The Association permits the registration of animals with either of these factors, but it places the designation “R” or “WT” following the animal’s registration number. Additionally, such animals are listed on the Association’s web site. Commercial tests are available to determine whether an animal carries one of these genetic factors. For further information, please contact the office of the Director of Member Services.

OtterCreekRanch · Aug 22, 2011

Definitely not Albino as has been stated due to the blue eyes and black pigmentation. I have done a lot of research into color genetics of many species over the years. Uniquely colored animals is quite fascinating to me. It appears from the story stated about the white cow mated to purebred bulls always producing white, that she is what is called Dominate White in other species. It seems the gene is much like the one found in cats that causes white cats with blue eyes. Fascinating. I find her deeply intriguing regardless of wether or not she is an angus. Blue Eyed Whites are not something you see often in most animal species. When it does pop up it is very remarkable indeed.

CAB · Aug 22, 2011

Here is the information that was attached to the front panel of the heifer's pen @ the state fair.

CAB · Aug 25, 2011

Bump for JG. Thanks, Cab.

Bryan · Aug 26, 2011

DL said:
SD said:

Not to pick a fight with DL but when did the AAA first state that red was a genetic defect? (In blue collar speak wouldn't that be considered not normal?)

Click to expand...

Hey SD - long time no see No fight here - I have the facts

First I guess it depends on if you believe the AAA and what they say

According to the AAA (Rule 305GF) red is considered a genetic "factor" not a genetic defect -

if people consider red is "abnormal" or "not normal" then all of us with blue eyes better watch out

Rule 350GF: Genetic Factors
The term “genetic factor” refers to the presence of a recessive gene that may or may not produce a certain type of offspring. The Association monitors two genetic factors: the Red Color factor and the Wild Type Color Gene factor. Both are monitored because they may, if present, result in the unintended birth of red calves. While red calves are not eligible for registration under the rules of the Association, they are not defective genetically. The Association permits the registration of animals with either of these factors, but it places the designation “R” or “WT” following the animal’s registration number. Additionally, such animals are listed on the Association’s web site. Commercial tests are available to determine whether an animal carries one of these genetic factors. For further information, please contact the office of the Director of Member Services.

red color is NOT normal. that is why the red gene is the recessive gene

aj · Aug 26, 2011

Did the red gene.....in the Red Angus......come from a mutation or did it come from the Shorthorn blood way back over the pond 2 or 3 hundred years ago? On the white angus I would say bloodtype her. Could the white come from all the chi and holstein blood that was in the Angus cattle?

aj · Aug 26, 2011

We have a neighbor who had some Limi-Maine Anjou crosses........he called them Lemy-jews.

aj · Aug 26, 2011

Should the "Durham Reds" be called......Shangus?

DL · Aug 26, 2011

Bryan said:
DL said:

SD said:

Not to pick a fight with DL but when did the AAA first state that red was a genetic defect? (In blue collar speak wouldn't that be considered not normal?)

Click to expand...

Hey SD - long time no see No fight here - I have the facts

First I guess it depends on if you believe the AAA and what they say

According to the AAA (Rule 305GF) red is considered a genetic "factor" not a genetic defect -

if people consider red is "abnormal" or "not normal" then all of us with blue eyes better watch out

Rule 350GF: Genetic Factors
The term “genetic factor” refers to the presence of a recessive gene that may or may not produce a certain type of offspring. The Association monitors two genetic factors: the Red Color factor and the Wild Type Color Gene factor. Both are monitored because they may, if present, result in the unintended birth of red calves. While red calves are not eligible for registration under the rules of the Association, they are not defective genetically. The Association permits the registration of animals with either of these factors, but it places the designation “R” or “WT” following the animal’s registration number. Additionally, such animals are listed on the Association’s web site. Commercial tests are available to determine whether an animal carries one of these genetic factors. For further information, please contact the office of the Director of Member Services.

Click to expand...

red color is NOT normal. that is why the red gene is the recessive gene

Your logic is totally flawed. By your logic, if you don't have freckles you must be abnormal because freckles are dominant and no freckles is recessive. - by definition a recessive traits when homozygous leads to a different phenotype - not all recessive traits result is an abnormal phenotype nor are all recessive traits defects - you probable need to review genetics 101

nate53 · Aug 26, 2011

aj said:
Did the red gene.....in the Red Angus......come from a mutation or did it come from the Shorthorn blood way back over the pond 2 or 3 hundred years ago? On the white angus I would say bloodtype her. Could the white come from all the chi and holstein blood that was in the Angus cattle?

The herd that supposedly all angus came from, had multiple colors in it, red and black were noted but was their something else? Does it matter? NO not really!
The black was selected because of desirability and consistencey, they had to axe the reds because red is recessive, black is dominant, hence the consistantcey and desirablility. Red angus is no more or less angus than Black angus, just selection preference from the so called original herd. AJ your statement about shorthorn being used on these cows way back when, it has been flat out denied by those programs, ( although logical).
Interesting note- Around 25 years ago we used some longhorn bulls on some angus-cross heifers, and out of these we had 3 or 4 that had white calves that had black spots on them (but mostly white). Now these original half longhorn animals had been rebred to black angus bulls. I guess what I'm getting to is we now have females from this mating that are 1/32 longhorn ( we got to this percentage by breeding to reg. black angus bulls) and when we mate them to reg. black angus we still get white animals with some small black spots on them about half the time, ( the other half of calves are solid black). White is dominant and I could diffenitely see how this gene could be passed down for a long period of time. I also did see this cow at the fair, was she a white angus, I don't know the sheet said she was. It could happen. My 2 cents! :

CAB · Aug 26, 2011

About the freckles. No one is born with freckles. PPL need exposure to the sun for the freckles to appear.

I am hoping to find the time to go look at Ben Knutson's herd of"White Angus" cattle this fall sometime. It should be interesting to say the least.

Bryan · Aug 26, 2011

red color is NOT normal. that is why the red gene is the recessive gene
[/quote]

Your logic is totally flawed. By your logic, if you don't have freckles you must be abnormal because freckles are dominant and no freckles is recessive. - by definition a recessive traits when homozygous leads to a different phenotype - not all recessive traits result is an abnormal phenotype nor are all recessive traits defects - you probable need to review genetics 101
[/quote]

this is the definition of abnormal from dictionary.com: not normal, average, typical, or usual; deviating from a standard.

that means that recessive traits are abnormal because they arent typically seen and its not usual or average for two black cows to have a red calf. which means that since the red gene is recessive it is abnormal

aj · Aug 26, 2011

Could we safely say that red is PREFERED over the black color even if it did come from Abby Normals herd?

White Angus cow at The Iowa State Fair

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