287 days? Do I get worried.

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DL

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Jan 29, 2007
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Still Learning - I am really sorry about your heifer - it is hard to wait for 9 months for a calf and then have a big sad mess on your hands.

I have a different take on the issue

You seem to have a good sense of what is going on with your cattle and it seems to me a little voice told you there was a problem - next time you hear that little voice have confidence in yourself and call your vet. Responses from well meaning individuals who don't know you or your heifer and talk about the "generic cow" are not always helpful

cowboy I disagree with you 200% - on several accounts

with a novice most vets will try to pull at least once - there are tricks that the new to cattle don't necessarily know - I don't think that is a red flag at all

a c-section and a uterine tear have only one thing in common - the uterus - otherwise they are 2 different cans of worms. With a c-section you have a straight, controlled incision with the uterus exteriorized and hopefully most uterine fluid ending up on the floor and not in the abdomen. When you go to suture it you can see it.

A uterine tear resulting from a fetotomy - you can't see it - if it is in the bottom part of the uterus you will end up with fluid (contaminated icky fluid) in the abdominal cavity - just right for infection. You have to suture these blind and you have no idea if you found all the tears or have them sutured tight. Tearing thru a cervix and a uterus are 2 different things as well.

You have a heifer with a uterine tear, a dead calf that has already begun to collect bacteria, and the fluid dumping into the heifers abdominal cavity. Dying from peritonitis is a slow, painful miserable death. Euthanizing this heifer before she suffered any more was a kind thing to do.

Again SL I am sorry about your heifer, listen to your little voice I think it will serve you well, DL
 

Cowboy

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Not surprised you disagreed with me DL, in fact I expected you too.

By saying you disagree 200% you make it sound like I am stupid --on some things I may be -- but not this. I absolutely DO know the difference between an incision and a tear left from an exposed bone.

My point was exactly this -- if a known hole was there -- instead of blind suturing and getting alot of things into the sutures that are not supposed to be -- a simple flank surgery would have been a good place to start. I doubt if I would have even tried to pull the calf if it had the feel of a bad deal any way. Exactly my point to begn with -- it was c-section signs all the way from the start.

That would have prevented the fluid being deposited into the  body cavity as you described. It is too late to split straws here -- I was just pointing out that to try and pull that bugger was - for the most part -- futile.

Feel free to take another point away as you are the only one that ever has!

Have a good day!

Terry
 

kanshow

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For whatever it is worth, I agree with Cowboy.    A pull was attempted, it didn't work so the vet might have tried a palpation to see what the situation was.    We have a vet who wanted to do something similar to what happened to you, told us the calf was dead.  DH insisted on the section to save the cow and lo & behold, the calf wasn't dead.  It took DH a long time to revive him and he was always a slow thing.

I do agree with DL on one point - you have to go with your gut and your instinct.. you are the one who is there and has the feeling for what is going on. 
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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I guess I'm a little confused here ( nothing new) but doesn't anybody palpate anymore? If I think there may be a problem with a cow that is the first thing I do ( calving related). I'm not a vet but 90% of the time I can tell if there is a serious problem or not. It only takes a few minutes and is the first place I start. A big calf feels like a big calf and malpresentation can be found as well. RW
 

dutch pride

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ROAD WARRIOR said:
I guess I'm a little confused here ( nothing new) but doesn't anybody palpate anymore? If I think there may be a problem with a cow that is the first thing I do ( calving related). I'm not a vet but 90% of the time I can tell if there is a serious problem or not. It only takes a few minutes and is the first place I start. A big calf feels like a big calf and malpresentation can be found as well. RW

OK I will show my ignorance and inexperience. How does one go about "palpating" a cow? Can someone inexperienced do it? Or should you call a vet the first few times?

Thanks  DLZ
 

CAB

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Very sorry to hear that you had such a loss SL. I would have to agree that if you have a hunch that something is wrong, go with it. I would also not change my advice to you and again say that there will be disagreement about what should be done, but hind site is 20/20, and if we had know better, we would have done better. If you don't have anything, you have nothing to lose. We all have lost cows, heifers and calves on this board and understand your loss Try to get back up and learn and grow from this. We are all Still Learning. Your name is the perfect one for you. Thank you for asking the questions. Sincerely, Brent. AKA. Cab
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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dutch pride said:
ROAD WARRIOR said:
I guess I'm a little confused here ( nothing new) but doesn't anybody palpate anymore? If I think there may be a problem with a cow that is the first thing I do ( calving related). I'm not a vet but 90% of the time I can tell if there is a serious problem or not. It only takes a few minutes and is the first place I start. A big calf feels like a big calf and malpresentation can be found as well. RW

OK I will show my ignorance and inexperience. How does one go about "palpating" a cow? Can someone inexperienced do it? Or should you call a vet the first few times?

Thanks   DLZ

Palpation does take some experience and time to learn. So does AI and nearly anything else we do. It is time well spent to learn if you have the oppertunity to do so. Sometimes I forget that not everyone has had the opportunity to " run their arm" in a few thousand cows, but a vet should know.
 

Bawndoh

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Dutch Pride- I would get a vet out to help you the first time you palpate.  He/She can explain some things to you, what to look for, how to do it, etc.  You will never get good at it without actually doing it!  Learn to do by Doing!

The other day my sister had a first calver tryin to have twins.  Her husband, a little less experienced, was the only one home.  He tried for a while to pull, and thought the calves were just too big.  Well, turns out they were both 70lbs, and he was pulling on one front leg of either calf.  He must have ripped the umbilical cord because they got to the vet after about 2 hours and the calves were both dead.  The vet showed her husband how to palpate and feel what is going on...and what to do "next time".
When I was in college, they constantly had us palpating cows checking for progress, or what to do with a hip-lock, or when one foot is back.  It never hurts a cow to palpate, just be CLEAN about it, and use proper discinfectant and lube.
 

OH Breeder

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Still learing,
I am so sorry for your loss. It is dishearting to have this happen. I learned the hard way as well. I don't mess anymore and changed vets becuase of it. the last time we felt like their were issues, we had the cow vet checked and did an elective c-section. If your gut tells you that something is wrong GO with it. It doesn't hurt to have them checked out. If the vet doesn't want to do it then if possible find one that will.

Dutch Pride- Have a vet work with you on palpating. It is a science like anything else. I have a great relationship with my vet as he grew up on dairy farm and  knew him in high school.
With all the money and time we put into these cattle we don't 'mess around besides the fact it tears us up emotionally when we loose one.
 

Show Heifer

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SL, join the club. No matter how "experienced" you are, no matter how many "hundreds" of cows you have calved, palpated, ET'd, looked at, or thought about, sooner or later, you come acrossed something new. And then we're "still learning"!!!

But....your vet probably tried to pull the calf due to the fact "your still learning"...heck, when I started, I didn't know crap from crap, and let me tell ya, I can tell what kind of grass the cow has been eating now!!!! So dont' hold that against your vet.  I checked with a few "vet friends" of mine, and all said without MAJOR surgery and high risk of infection, the heifer was humanely put down. This is not to mention the huge cost involved in fixing the tear. So your vet did the right thing there.

And I have learned the despite everyone calling me "mother hen", "worry wart" , "nervous nellie"  and STILL trust my gut.  Yes, maybe you should have called for a vet earlier (I don't EVER induce - so don't blame ya there), but you didn't and that is because you are still learning and that is OK. You did the best you knew how to do. Now that you know better, you will do better. Don't knock yourself out over it.  I hate to say it, but if you continue to raise cattle, you will lose more, and that is ok too....just don't every stop learning.

I am sorry you lost the heifer and calf....I have had a very long day myself and it looks like the night is going to go on for a long time too....I am doing the best I can with the help and support of a very great friend.  I have been raising cattle for my entire life and I still lose them and  I still get mad and upset....but there is always tomorrow and always a chance to save one I might not know how to save today.

Hold your chin up.....it does it better....I promise.
 

red

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Jan 20, 2007
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LaRue, Ohio
My red cow tore her uterus on her first calf (136#) It had stated to heal on it's own but there was a large sack hanging out of it. We took her to OSU & they recommended some time to see what would happen. We took her back & the tear had healed & the sack gone. It was some fatty tissue that had gotten sealed up as she started to heal & went down on it's own.

We flushed in 2 months & she produced 15 number 1 eggs. Has never effected her abilities since.

I think every situation may be different & everyone has seen a huge range of issues & how to deal w/ them.
Like I said earlier,, we do induce because of large calves & haven't had an issue  or problem w/ it. we also palapate cows if we think there might be trouble.

Red
 

red

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LaRue, Ohio
dutch pride said:
ROAD WARRIOR said:
I guess I'm a little confused here ( nothing new) but doesn't anybody palpate anymore? If I think there may be a problem with a cow that is the first thing I do ( calving related). I'm not a vet but 90% of the time I can tell if there is a serious problem or not. It only takes a few minutes and is the first place I start. A big calf feels like a big calf and malpresentation can be found as well. RW

OK I will show my ignorance and inexperience. How does one go about "palpating" a cow? Can someone inexperienced do it? Or should you call a vet the first few times?

Thanks   DLZ


Here is some info on how to papate a cow. might be overload but will give you explainations & terms
Bovine Rectal Palpation

P.J. Hansen

Dept. of Animal Sciences, University of Florida

Anatomical Basis of Rectal Palpation

Manipulation and examination of the reproductive tract of cattle via rectal palpation is possible because of several anatomical features of the cow:

1) As in other species, the reproductive tract of the bovine is suspended from the dorsal body wall by the broad ligament. The posterior part of the tract (vagina, cervix and, sometimes part of the uterus) is located in the pelvic cavity (formed by the two pelvic bones) and the anterior part of the tract hangs over the pelvic brim (uterus, oviduct, ovaries and, sometimes part of the cervix) and is suspended in the abdominal cavity. Moreover, the tract is located immediately below the rectum.

2) The rectum of the cow is large enough to allow insertion of the hand and arm of the palpator. Moreover, the rectal wall is sufficiently pliable to allow one to grasp and reproductive tract structures through the rectal wall.

3) The rectal wall of the cow is strong so that tearing, while possible, is rare. Note the situation is different in other species, notably the mare, where the rectal wall is more subject to damage. Nonetheless, care should be taken when performing rectal palpation of cattle because the rectum can be torn or otherwise damaged.

Features of the Reproductive Tract Ascertained by Rectal Palpation

Cervix

The cervix can be grasped and manipulated to insert an artificial insemination pipette or embryo flush catheter through the rings of the cervix and into the uterus. The cervix is also sometimes used to pull the reproductive tract further into the pelvic cavity during palpation so as to make palpation of ovarian and uterine structures easier.

Uterus

The uterus can be palpated to get a rough estimate of endocrine status of the cow. Cows under the influence of estrogen have a uterus with "tone" where the uterus feels turgid and muscular. Cows under the influence of progesterone may have a more flaccid-feeling uterus. A very small uterus can be an indication that a cow is reproductively quiescent or sterile.

After calving, the uterus can be palpated to determine involution (return of the uterus to a pre-pregnant condition; i.e., ready for breeding). The major criteria are size (reduction in size of uterine horns and a return of the horns to a more uniform size (i.e., the horn previously containing the fetus is no longer larger than the other horn), location in the body cavity (more forward into the pelvic cavity) and tone [less meaty" (i.e., large, soft and pliable) and more turgid].

During pregnancy (after ~ d 35-40), it is possible to palpate the presence of the conceptus by feeling for the "fetal slip". The fetal slip refers to the feel of the placental membranes moving through the fingers as the palpator first grasps the uterus and then lets it gradually slip through his fingers. Ultrasonic examination of the uterus can also result in visualization of the fetus.

Ovaries

Follicles can be felt as fluid-filled pliable structures. Note that only a fraction of the number of follicles actually present are usually detected by rectal palpation - ultrasound examination is required to detect all follicles on the ovary. The corpus luteum is a hard structure that often protrudes from the otherwise smooth curvature of the ovary. The best way to learn to identify ovarian structures is to practice using reproductive tracts obtained from a slaughterhouse.

Cystic ovaries are readily identified by rectal palpation as very large ovaries (twice or more in normal size). Cysts are follicular structures that have grown very large in size (>2.5 cm) which persist for 10 or more days and which lead to inhibition of ovulation and nymphomania. Follicular cysts can be luteinized or not. Luteinized cysts (about 30% of cysts) have a thicker wall than nonluteinized cysts. Luteinized follicular cysts can be confused with a fluid-filled corpus luteum which is a normal tructure that does not disrupt the estrous cycle.

Uses of Rectal Palpation

1) artificial insemination

2) non-surgical recovery of embryos for subsequent embryo transfer

3) pregnancy diagnosis

4) postpartum reproductive exam to determine suitability of the animal for breeding and to estimate whether the cow is cyclic.

5) clinical diagnosis of cystic ovarian disease and uterine infections.

Procedure for Examination of the Reproductive Tract by Rectal Palpation

Entering the Rectum

1) The cow is restrained by placing it in a chute or stanchion.

2) The cow is approached in a way that minimizes fright to the animal. Do not make sudden movements or act in a loud, frightening way, especially if the cow is not habituated to people. Dairy cows will usually not kick although some will. One can approach the cow slightly from the side to avoid kicks. The cow can be gently touched on the flank or back to make it aware of the palpator's presence and to allow evaluation of the cow's temperament.

3) Before beginning palpating, the arm used for palpation (either will do; whatever is most comfortable) should be covered with a palpation sleeve. A variety of sleeves are available. One workable alternative is to use an inexpensive, disposable palpation sleeve with a tighter-fitting latex glove fitted over the hand. The palpation sleeve can be attached to the sleeve of the coveralls or work shirt with a hemostat or clothespin.

4) After donning the palpation sleeve, the glove should be lubricated with K-Y jelly or a commercially-available lubricant such as those sold by Nasco or ABS.

5) Approaching the cow while standing somewhat sideways, grab the tail with the ungloved hand and push it aside (for cows prone to kicking, the tail can be raised perpendicular to the cow to prevent kicking). The anus can be identified as the upper of the two openings under the tail (the lower one being the vulva). If there is only one opening present, look around to see which of your co-workers has slipped a bull or steer into the string of animals being palpated.

6) To enter the rectum, form the hand into a cone shape by bringing the fingers and thumb together and use a slight rotary motion to insert the fingers and hand into the rectum. Entering the rectum takes some physical effort because of the strength of the anal sphincter muscle and because of peristaltic contractions in the rectum. The contractions often subside after the arm has been placed in the rectum. If the contractions are especially large (the cow has arched her back to generate additional contractile force), one can have a coworker press down on the animal's spine to lower the pressure. To enter the rectum while strong contractions are taking place, the palpator must use enough force to overcome the contractions while being careful to avoid injuring the cow.

7) After the rectum has been entered, the palpator should remove fecal material from the rectum by using the cupped hand as a rake. Removal of fecal matter is not always necessary if the feces are not abundant or are very soft.

8) It is possible for the cow to suck air into the rectum, especially if the palpator makes many rapid in-an -out motions with the arm. When this occurs, it is nearly impossible to palpate the reproductive tract because the rectum balloons outwards. To reduce the problem, air can sometimes be removed by grasping a fold of the rectal wall and slowly moving it backwards to the anus.

Finding and Palpating Structures in the Reproductive Tract

1) For a new palpator, the cervix is usually the best landmark to help find the reproductive tract. The cervix can be identified as a rope-like or chicken-neck-like structure about 3 inches in diameter that is usually in the pelvic cavity along the midline. Sometimes, the bladder can displace the reproductive tract so that it lies to the right side of the pelvic cavity.

2) The cervix can be picked up and held in the hand. Do not attempt to grab the cervix between thumb and the first two fingers of the hand because it is hard to hold the cervix in this manner. Rather, grab the cervix from the side while placing the the fingers underneath the cervix and the thumb on top. If the reproductive tract is located far forward in the abdominal cavity, one can use the cervix to pull the reproductive tract into the pelvic cavity.

3) The uterus can be identified and examined by following the cervix forward. To do so, the cervix and uterus is grasped in the hand so that the hand lies over the tract with the palm down and the thumb underneath the tract. The external bifurcation can be identified as the point where the two uterine horns branch from the uterine body. The two horns should be roughly the same size although this will not be the case during late pregnancy and the early postpartum period. The uterine horns can very greatly in size depending upon the reproductive status of the animal. At estrus, the horns tend to be in a turgid, muscular state. Acyclic and sterile animals will often have a very small or nearly- infantile reproductive tract. After calving, the uterine horns will be very large, with one uterine horn larger than the other and with the reproductive tract displaced into the abdominal cavity.

4) The ovaries are either tucked slightly underneath the uterus or located to the side of the uterus at a variable distance. Sometimes, the ovaries can be found by grasping the uterus, and then, after release of the uterus, turning the hands counterclockwise while using the fingers to probe for the ovary.

4) Once located, the ovary can be grasped with the fingers while the ovary is held in the palm. The fingers can be moved along the entire surface of the ovary - periodic pressure is applied by the fingertips to search for ovarian structures. Follicles appear as pliable, fluid-filled structures. Care must be taken to avoid rupturing preovulatory follicles. Corpora lutea appear as hard structures that often protrude from the edge of the ovary. Sometimes, the ovulation fossa can be identified as a protruberance from the surface of the corpus luteum.

5) The oviducts are usually not found during palpation unless some pathology is present (i.e., oviductal inclusion or infection).

 

GLZ

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Mar 24, 2008
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385
Thanks everyone for your comments.  Many of them were very informative.

Just to clarify a few things because some posts went out on some strange tangeants.

The heifer herself was at 289 days.  Believe it or not, I was actually at the vets that morning, and the vet told me to give her 3 to 5 more days.  When I pulled up to the barn that afternoon, she had a waterbag showing.  The one thing I regret about the hole thing was the cow was very listless at the time.  She didn't even seem to be interested in anything.  It was here that I should have realized something wasn't right, unfortunately as someone said hindsight is 20/20. 

I did palpate the heifer on multiple occasions.  Everything was lined up perfectly.  The calf was no doubt alive at one point.  After some time went by, I knew I had to try to help her.  I palpated her again, and thought that I would be able to pull it.  I know I have pulled much bigger calves than this one.  I pulled, and knew pretty quickly it was a difficult pull.  I palpated again, and everything was still lined up perfectly, so I pulled one more time.  I palpated again, and realized the head had moved off to the side.  It is at this point that I called the vet.

The vet came out, and when she got there she palpated the heifer.  By this time I pretty much figured the calf was dead, which she confirmed with me.  So we decided to cut the calf out.  I cut off the right leg of the calf, and pulled it out.  She palpated again to get the head of the calf lined up to come out, it was then she told me she had found the hole in the uterus.  She said it was a pretty large hole, and there was no doubt that a lot of fluid had leaked down into her guts.  She asked me what I wanted to do, but it was her recommendation to put her down, because she would be stitching completely blind, and it probably wouldn't hold.  It was then I decided to put the heifer down.

 

chambero

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Bad things happen sometimes.  It wasn't the 289 days that caused you problems.  It honestly sounds like you did things right.  You took action when the heifer quit making progress on her own.  You could use the same decision process the next 100 times and everything be fine 95% of the time. 

I haven't had one where I've known we had a torn uterus, but we haven't had a vet out to help pull a calf in a very long time.  I wouldn't know how to tell if the uterus is torn honestly.  We have had to bring calves out in pieces before (sometimes rotten ones) and it is always awful.  We always bring them to town and dose them heavily with antiobiotics for a long time.  I wouldn't put one down until I knew I had a very sick animal.  Their bodies are amazing and they can get over a lot as others here have said better than I can.

But, don't think you did anything wrong by waiting.  Sometimes babies just die and mommas have problems.
 
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