65% of the Shorthorn breeds current design is based on show heifers.

[librarian]

Anyway, I didn't mean to throw stones. When I put a Shorthorn bull on a Galloway cow, or vice/versa I don't try to sell the product as a registered  Shorthorn Plus, or consider myself a Shorthorn breeder by doing so. It's just a crossbred animal. Market animals- and the ring is a market that capitalizes on heterosis just like the beef industry.
I was trying to imply that aj might be wrongheaded in what he was saying about " the Shorthorn breed".
I agree, the breed is extremely heterozygous- how to tighten it up will always be a matter of conflicting interests.

 

[knabe]

I'l bet that is what it is.....bahahahahahahahahahahah

a real shorthorn is one that is constantly evolving from an infusion of maine's, red angus, the next breed in line, cattle with Th, taken to a show in denver.


yup. that's what a shorthorn is. at least according to aj.


a real shorthorn is something aj will never have.

 

[knabe]

Knabe I have a website.

Sodhouse Little Man
His actual BW was 78#.  His dam was an 1100# cow with excellent fleshing ability.  He is siring moderate framed easy keeping cattle.  Super disposition. His daughters are very moderate and are a lot like gismo daughters (allthough a complete outcross).


who is gismo?


sodhouse little man is 7.8% maine


he has the color pattern of a fullblood maine, which are in the top and bottom of his pedigree, including polled premier.


essentially, he's almost a maintainer. it's clear, you don't have shorthorns. you have crossbreds.

 

[RyanChandler]

Semantics.

So what is your definition of a real Shorthorn? Is anything with Irish or Scotch heritage out?

To me, it's not so much what's in the pedigree as it is how close up the infusion really is. A purebred's value lies in the assumption that the animal has a stabilized genotype and thus breeds true. Bulls like Red Reward are crossbreds and lack the concentration of like-genetics I'm looking for. When a commercial cattlemen purchases a bull, he wants a reasonable high level of assurance that his calfcrop will actually inherit the characteristics he sees expressed in the herdsire he selected. With crossbred or mongrel bulls, because of both the phenotypical and genotypical variation in their immediate pedigree, theyre not going to provide you with the level of consistency wanted.  Some offspring will revert back to the sire, some to the grandsire, some to other various ancestry.  Take Red Demand for example: the calves that revert to HAA Contender will be quite different than those who revert to KL 6294.  A fundamental rule: the more variation in the pedigree, the more variation in the offspring.

 

[oakview]

Who or what do the Deerpark Improver's revert to?  Evidently the TH and DS carriers. He's in the pedigree of a great many "pure" Shorthorns.  Clare Man?  Give me a break.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I dont know what your market is? And I am not knocking it-raise what you want. But the above satement makes the assumption that all the other NOW BLACK "pure" breeds like-Simms, Limmis, Maines,Simm Angus, Chi Angus etc are used by commercial breeders because of thier non dilution with other breeds-They are as much or moreso mutts compared to the Red Demands etc. I see them everywhere in the fields-and frankly-they do alot better on grass than the few Herefords I see-the reasonably purebred Charolais and Limmis allways look good in any bunch ive seen.Sorry-but it is what it is.The commercial guys ive met from here to California are in the business of crossbreeding on a regular basis or at some point. And dont give a Rats A2345689s about pedigrees, "papered" up cattle and alot of genetic theories etc..They have a general idea what the strengths and weaknesses of the breeds of cattle overall, and what they want the cattle to look like . They make changes when things do not work outr if they want to add-subtract various traits or color. If its a hide issue(GO FIGURE)-they would probably consider a Red Demand looking bull as long as there werent calving issues-The calves would be as STOUT as what they are used to,would wiegh with out being too gangly looking,have an ass on them(hear that as much as the BW issue)and most likely would be black. Unbeknownst to alot of them-the guys I have talked to (over 50 or so years) almost  never question the milking ablity on any Shorthorn-little do they know in some cases LOL O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Anyway, I didn't mean to throw stones. When I put a Shorthorn bull on a Galloway cow, or vice/versa I don't try to sell the product as a registered  Shorthorn Plus, or consider myself a Shorthorn breeder by doing so. It's just a crossbred animal. Market animals- and the ring is a market that capitalizes on heterosis just like the beef industry.
I was trying to imply that aj might be wrongheaded in what he was saying about " the Shorthorn breed".
I agree, the breed is extremely heterozygous- how to tighten it up will always be a matter of conflicting interests./////If you have a good Shorthorn plus-to me thats a good thing-and the calf could probably be an improvement over the parent(s) Ill take improvement anytime-even if it ends up being some endless loop staistical accident in the great ocean of probablities. ONE OF THE LONGEST RUNNING POSITIVE  PUBLIC OPINIONS ON SHORTHORNS IS HOW WELL THEY CROSS-THE SUCESS OF A COMMERCIAL BULL IS HOW WELL HE CROSSES. Both Angus and Shorthorns seem to be ugly as a mud fence UNTIL they are crossed.ALMOST EVERY BREED INCLUDING ANGUS have Shorthorn in thier DNA. Crossing is what most commercial guys do:And they have some dam good looking and performing"mongrel" cattle.-IS there a pattern here? O0

 

[librarian]

O0, I'm with you. Its the basic pattern. This bull is a case in point.
I bet his calves have all kinds of spring of rib and full hindquarters, grow adequately  feed well, show well, have good structure, marble and milk, without the currently known defects. Shorthorns have fabulous "combining ability". Dollars to donuts he's Leader x 6807 not too far back. Mongrel-no. The old use of the term crossbred meant the first cross of two breeds, not just anything.
But, we digress.

 

[oakview]

Leader 21 became popular because he sired show winners.  Now he's real world.  Go figure.

 

[RyanChandler]

Who or what do the Deerpark Improver's revert to?  Evidently the TH and DS carriers. He's in the pedigree of a great many "pure" Shorthorns.  Clare Man?  Give me a break.

In most modern pedigrees, at least in the ones I value, those infused genetics you're talking about are a half dozen generations or more back and their outcross influence has been diluted over this time.  To me, it's not a matter of them being 'pure' or not.  My concern is that I want a stabilized genotype that hasn't had any outside influence for, ideally, 7 generations. 7 being the number of generations it takes to rid outside (outcross) gene expression.  Minimize variation in pedigree ==> minimize variation in offspring.

The commercial guys ive met from here to California are in the business of crossbreeding on a regular basis or at some point. And dont give a Rats A2345689s about pedigrees, "papered" up cattle and alot of genetic theories etc..They have a general idea what the strengths and weaknesses of the breeds of cattle overall, and what they want the cattle to look like . They make changes when things do not work outr if they want to add-subtract various traits or color.

You've got a point.  A large number of cattle producers really have no understanding of cattle breeding whatsoever.  There's a large majority of producers out there who simply inherit a lot of a land and with their 'general ideas' and uncle sams direct payments, make a shit load of money.  For these producers, good , is good enough. Some heterosis is huge improvement over the results they'd had from generations of straight breeding, so of course their pleased with new results. I personally attribute their satisfaction to the unfortunate realization that many of these people have never experienced the POWER of a genuine outcross. They don't know just how much better those F1 females are than the mongrels they've been using. They're touting their choice filets as the best only because they've never tried prime.  They don't have to, nor do they have the passion, to have a deeper understanding that would enable them to further address and refine their product a true craftsman would.

Of course commercial cattlemen need to be crossbreeding. This is implicit.  But what should also be implicit is that in order to create a crossbreed, you must initially start with purebred parent stock. Crossbreds do not replicate themselves. This is literally the sole purpose of purebred breeders: to preserve and propagate purebred lines so as to be able to provide the commercial cattlemen with the necessary components he needs in order to create market bound crossbred calves.

I can't emphasis this enough: the purebred breeder and the commercial cattlemen do not fulfill the same role in the supply chain. 

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

The Shorthorn is a composite breed. They were developed from the Mancell and Durham  cattle. I agree with Olson.

AJ, all breeds in world are composite ones!
The breeds origin is made by crosses.
A breed is called BREED after have a herdbook stablished.
Before it is only a bovine!

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

So, based on numbers population, I can assume that Shorthorn is not relevant.
Not anymore!
In some countries it show some limited practical use on meat industry.
In some others is like a pet!
So, in reality, the breed is gone!
People insist to put "new genetics" on it, keep calling it "Shorthorn", but, as mentioned on World Shorthorn Congress on Dairy Shorthorn UK report....so blend on it that they appear to be more Ayrshores than Shorthorns!
Black Shorthorn will soon appear!

 

[shortyjock89]

So I want to know if Simmental, Limousin, and Maine Anjou are finished as well?

You'd have a hard time going back more than 3 generations back without finding outside influence, let alone 7 or 8.

I maintain that Shorthorns retain more perceived breed character than any of those mentioned above.

We used one of those Shorthorn bulls that has 6 generations of no outside influence and not only are his progeny less predictable than my Red Reward influenced cattle, they're nowhere near as good in any aspect. I realize this is purely anecdotal but I'd welcome anyone to come look and see.

 

[oakview]

Regardless of the genetics put together, whether it's 7 generations of "pure" breeding or 1 cross of what somebody likes, the results depend greatly upon the skill of the person preparing the mix.  Even then, there is some "luck" involved.  Full brothers, even ETs from what we think are the most consistent genetics on earth, don't always look or produce the same.  The Red Rewards I've seen have been very impressive.  We'll soon find out how they work for us.  Zulu has worked great on our cows.  I believe Wesley will, too.  It won't hurt to try the Red Reward line a little.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

So I want to know if Simmental, Limousin, and Maine Anjou are finished as well?

You'd have a hard time going back more than 3 generations back without finding outside influence, let alone 7 or 8.

I maintain that Shorthorns retain more perceived breed character than any of those mentioned above.

We used one of those Shorthorn bulls that has 6 generations of no outside influence and not only are his progeny less predictable than my Red Reward influenced cattle, they're nowhere near as good in any aspect. I realize this is purely anecdotal but I'd welcome anyone to come look and see.////// DITTO-And give credit where credit is due alot of the "diluted" Maines, Simms, Limmis, etc are producing very usefull stout cattle that commercial (and people like me) want. O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Regardless of the genetics put together, whether it's 7 generations of "pure" breeding or 1 cross of what somebody likes, the results depend greatly upon the skill of the person preparing the mix.  Even then, there is some "luck" involved.  Full brothers, even ETs from what we think are the most consistent genetics on earth, don't always look or produce the same.  The Red Rewards I've seen have been very impressive.  We'll soon find out how they work for us.  Zulu has worked great on our cows.  I believe Wesley will, too.  It won't hurt to try the Red Reward line a little.//// I agree in general-every animal can be different-full sibs show that alot. I remember Oakview Roseleaf  x Cuniax 3W Payoff "I think" back in approx 94-and you have had a large number of real good animals that go back to infusians of maine like that. So I think Reward blood would work great-If you look at the show pics of Wayne Temples bull,and Turners Deception you could paint them black-as far as what I see commercial cattle guys like-and they are deep-thick-and cool looking-the type of phenotype that oughta win shows too. I heard the other night that at least Deception looked good out on grass-and Southern Kansas aint no lush paradise after they get done showing. O0

 

[librarian]

I was talking to a person today who argued that 65% of the Shorthorn breeds excitement, investment, and unofficial mission statement is grounded on the base of breeders selling 5,000-15,000$ show heifers to non agricultural producer buyers. It made sense to me. She said that 80% of the Shorthorn youth program was simply a expansion of adult breeders bleeding over into that arena. In 2016 is that a reasonable statement?

You could say the same thing about pickup trucks, only increase the $$$.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

You ever notice has the majority of breeders in any breed are followers? I walked the Ohio beef expo and noticed over 75% of the angus were sired by a Conneally bull. Majority of shorthorns are Sull sired or influenced some way. Anybody who brings anything home raised usually takes a beating. I remember ol Keith Moore would bring home raised cattle and never seemed to get much support. Everyone flocks to the hot bull, breeds the piss out of it until everybody has those genetics and then we look for another bull that will please the masses. When Levis are cool, everybody where's them. When Wranglers are cool, nobody would be caught wearing Levi's. Not if you want to fit in anyway.

The truth is breeding pre potent cattle is the toughest challenge a purebred breeder faces. You've gotta start somewhere. And it depends on your goals too. But in my mind an elite seed stock guy is almost a rebel. Walks to the beat of a different drum and stays the course. Different types of cattle appeal to different people. I had a nice RS 034 heifer born the other day. She's out of the same JSF Reload cow my herd bull this year is out of. Hopefully next year I'll breed those two half sibs and get a decent calf to breed on. Hopefully a good bull calf that can breed my cows.


If you look at a Keeney or Shoshone bred angus cow compared to what's deemed the ideal type today in the show ring, the gap is pretty huge. I say breed what you fancy but don't claim they can do it all until you've proven it. In large numbers. Shorthorns just lack sheer numbers more than anything. And an association that doesn't do a damn thing for me but send a bill.

 

[aj]

Brock.........I might throw this out there. If any registered Shorthorn is a th carrier.......a automatic 10% purity is added to their pedigree. If they are a ds carrier another 10% purity would be administered. Pha would not be a player in this program since that is a Maine Anjou. So if you have a non asterisk cow that is a th and ds carrier........she would be considered to be 120% pure.......and if mated to 80% pure bull.....the resulting calf would be a 100%.....non asterisk pedigree calf. If a calf is black......a automatic 10% would be subtracted from the %. I would hope that the national directors at least consider this protocol. I may call Marty and see if we could get this on the next meetings agenda. This way.....a black Shorthorn could never be registered at more than 90%. signed......Wilford Sorghum.

 

[JTM]

Who cares what the cow looks like? Who cares how good the bull looks? The funny thing is that we go back and forth describing the perfect phenotypes of cattle and we follow the fads that are popular. You can't look at a bull and say, "Oh that is a great commercial Shorthorn bull!". You can't look at a bull and say, "that bull is nothing, he lacks in this, lacks in that, etc.". What the commercial industry comes down to is results. Proven results. One thing that I've learned is that most of the time it's the ugliest cows that are the best cows. They are the ones that have outlasted the pretty ones because they have performed for their owner, not just looked pretty for their owner. In the case of Red Reward and Hot Commodity, I think one could build off of those bloodlines and maybe not take very long to gain commercial acceptance compared to building from other show genetic lines. We are going on about 70 calves on the ground this year so far. Zero have died at birth. Calved out over 20 heifers. We are witnessing calf vigor consistently where calves are standing for the first time in 5 minutes, nursing in 15 minutes. This is also happening when it is 5 degrees outside with a wind chill at -10 degrees. My two year old purebreds and crossbred Shorthorns are calving at 900 lbs. unassisted and will likely wean 50-60% of their body weight and get bred back. Ten years ago I would have had no idea that this was even possible. I was pushing heifers to get to 1300 lbs. before they calved so they were big enough and still had to pull 60% of them. When I thought things were really good 3 or 4 years ago I had no idea they could get better. I'm looking for genetics to compliment these genetics and are "like kind" in their overall balance of performance and their mature weight.