A Sire Line

[mark tenenbaum]

The 187Y 3 year old is about as nice a phenotype as can be. I think she may be 12 o"clock, as far as youd g.The hiefer calf although no slouch almost looks like the beginnig of a regression as mentioned by X-Bar.  If it were me-id try AI to a good red one that isnt necessarily closely related jmo:If one of those Caper bulls was not real close-it would be line bred on line bred:might really knick:especially as good as she looks and as goos as those bull(s) look O0

 

[librarian]

Sire/daughter mating.

 

[nate53]

Are you sure those aren't clones Gary!

That is a compliment of the highest order Nate. You actually thought the 2 year old could turn out better than his sire when I posted his yearling picture earlier this year.

Yes I like the yearling photo! 

 

[RyanChandler]

i may not have the below completely correct, but anyway.

mmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f mmmmmmmmmmmmm
f f f f f f f f f f f f  mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f


mmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f mmmmmmmmmmmmm
f f f f f f f f f f f f  mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f


the above represents two chromosomes  from two half sib parents where the f and m equal what was received from the previous parents, but one, the female is from a half sib mating, so the "f" is the "same", while the "m" is from a different sire, ie in this case one is attempting to concentrate the female. of course the "benefit" of the female may no be so beneficial in a homozygous state, but her offspring might be in the first generation.  again, this is a good illustration that there are a lot of things going on with line breeding and why it's much easier to have "crossbred" cattle within a breed to take out this potential variability.


when the cross occurs, one could end up with


mmmmmmmm f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f
f f f f f f f f f f f f  f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f


in this hypothetical, the IBC is potentially much higher than if there were more crossover events.  multiply this effect over multiple chromosomes and multiple generations, and it's clear concurrent observations must be taken into effect, ie defects, and what one wants or doesn't want.  it's also clear that one can get rid of stuff from an otherwise good animal, but keep the rest with rigorous culling.  add in the possibility of methylation which may happen on one half of the chromosome but not the other is now very different than either one of the parents which may also account for variability.  "superior" animals may in addition to depression or hybrid vigor may be the result of other regulatory pathways. to me, at this stage in genomics, it's not clear to me when we will figure this out, but it is clear to me that line breeding is ok as long as one understands that the first few generations will potentially be extremely variable, but that doesn't necessarily mean to get rid of the outliers, but to be more focused on what one wants in specific traits found lacking or to be gotten rid of.


to me, it's why buster should be line bred.  hopefully someone will do it.

 

When you say the first few generations will potentially be extremely variable, what is this in comparison to?  I don't see the variability being as high as it would be if you bred to a same breed 'outcross' and especially not as high if bred to a different breed-- and definitely not as high if bred to a multi-breed bull. 

 

[r.n.reed]

My guess is it would be relative to the genetics you start with.If you bred bull A to his close relative and the pedigrees were diverse in their makeup there would be several animals that could potentially dominate.You keep the ones that fit your program and continue to tighten the noose with each generation to eliminate the variability.Your posts have been valuable to this discussion thanks.Yours as well Knabe.

 

[knabe]

When you say the first few generations will potentially be extremely variable, what is this in comparison to?  I don't see the variability being as high as it would be if you bred to a same breed 'outcross' and especially not as high if bred to a different breed-- and definitely not as high if bred to a multi-breed bull.

random in both the cross and the references.

 

[RyanChandler]

Good question XBAR,I think the biggest problem in finding out is that once a herd reaches that regression point there are few breeders willing to take it farther and few buyers willing to purchase those animals.So it is hard to say which decides the next mating in a program maximum outcross potential or regression. I suppose it comes down to the big O word again,optimize.
To me it is amazing how much linebreeding or even inbreeding takes place without a breeder even realizing it.I wonder how many bulls were tossed as poor producers when used in a certain herd when actually it was a regression situation because the breeder failed to look back more than 3 generations on a pedigree or how many bulls were called a wonder bull for being a prepotent sire with a diverse pedigree for the same reason.I doubt that Harvey Fulton was wanting to stack King Collynie jr. when he planned the mating that produced Kenmar President 26a but he is in that pedigree many many times from top to bottom.It makes sense though when you think about it that that kind of thing could happen quite easy when you are focused on producing a certain type of animal.

I'm thinking that your outcross potential isn't maximized until you start to experience regression within your own herd.  And even when you start experiencing regression, you might have attained a level of prepotency in your herd that will still more than offset the reduction in phenotype when used as an outcross.  The key will be to find out if there is a certain IBC at which the prepotency phenomenon is no longer 'strong' enough to compensate/offset for the reduction in type. But w/ IBC% being hypothetical, it might be a less useful tool than I thought otherwise. 

I'm sure there are many situations where bulls were tossed liked you say or, even worse, unduly praised for their calves performance.  I can still remember the first time I used a non angus bull over Angus cows.  I bought a Santa Gertrudis bull down by Lake Fork.  I had prolly the best group of calves I've ever had the following year.  For years I thought this was just the best bull in the world.  Looking back, quality wise, that bull was average at best-  knowing what I do now, I would give hybrid vigor all the credit for the superiority of the calves he threw.  And let me tell you, putting a heavily linebred Gert bull over some old school squatty frame 3 angus cows has a punch like few fathom exists.  I'm sure if others would give this approach a try -that is, using a linebred bull over unrelated cows- they'd be believers as soon as the very first calf crop came. 

 

[knabe]

I'm thinking that your outcross potential isn't maximized until you start to experience regression within your own herd.  And even when you start experiencing regression, you might have attained a level of prepotency in your herd that will still more than offset the reduction in phenotype when used as an outcross.  The key will be to find out if there is a certain IBC at which the prepotency phenomenon is no longer 'strong' enough to compensate/offset for the reduction in type. But w/ IBC% being hypothetical, it might be a less useful tool than I thought otherwise. 

yup.

 

[librarian]

This is why I say the easiest thing to market is the idea of the superiority of the first cross. 
Getting to the idea of using linebred bulls to make the cross comes a little later.  In the meantime, keep working on figuring this out, it's like going to school for me.

 

[r.n.reed]

Librarian,one thing I have found out for sure in this business is that you never quit learning.My most common phrase has come to be I thought I had seen it all.
Here is an example of the variance we have been talking about.These are 2 linebred 2013 bull calves in my herd.They pretty much have all the same animals behind them but at different levels of intensity and location.

 

[Okotoks]

Thanks Ralph for posting those pictures the heifers look very functional and it will be very worthwhile to intensify those genetics.I agree with Duncraggen on those udders and also your attention to detail on the calving reports.
Thanks for clarifying JTM on your thoughts I am anxious to see how this next generation performs with an even higher degree of intensity.
Dan,27c has always been a favorite of mine.Do you have a certain percentage of him you want in a pedigree or is it more of when a superior individual presents himself?
AJ, You should outdo your Dad and buy 4 Maxi Brute grandsons at Lovings sale March 1st. ;D

Gary we have a few that are 37.5% Diamond Captain Mark 27C. Just got a heifer calf tonight out of a 27C daughter, Diamond Nicola Suasn 23N and by a grandson, Diamond Logical Choice 9L making the calf 37.5% 27C. One of my favourite cows is Diamond Wisest Maid 29W and she is 25% 27C, 50% Northern Legend 3N and 18.75% 27C's dam.

 

[redcows]

Gary, Your bulls look great...keep up the good work.
My herd sire, Line One, is a half brother-half sister mating to the Creole bull. That brings Elbee Mary Margo 3rd to the plate 4 times. The cows consist of Dad's Princess Royal cow sired by Creole, Line One's dam and her daughters and granddaughters. I was pleased with his first calves last year and looking forward to this years group. Time will tell.

 

[r.n.reed]

Red Cows it sounds like you are tightening things up.I know you told me once but what was the herd your cows originated from again?Can you post a picture of Line One?Any 8c daughters in that bunch?

 

[RyanChandler]

what is the roan bull, Gary?

 

[r.n.reed]

He is a 4508 son reg#4202810,his maternal line has been my most fertile line since I bought the first one in 1974.
He's roan and horned and I kept him a bull thats how much I think of him.His dam is white hence the color.I always keep one white cow since they are called the Red White and Roan.

 

[redcows]

Gary, My foundation Ruby cow by Creole came from Homedale Farms and is a 3/4 sister to the Max Rosa branch of the Ruby family. She is Line One's mother and other than Dad's Creole cow, she is the dam or granddam of all the rest of the herd. The pics of Line One are last year as a coming two year old and no grain since 11 months of age. The rear view was taken in January and the front view in March last year....what a difference in weather, huh? She had a 8C bull calf one year that I liked but just needed a tick more base width. She is due March 18 with the 3rd full sib to Line One and yes, I'd take a heifer! Last year and again Jan 19 this year I got good heifers that are 3/4 sibs to Line One.