STEERJOCK21L
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- Jul 30, 2007
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I heard somebody say that they put Ali down. What exactly was wrong with him and made him quit giving semen? Is this just a way to get the price up or is it true?
Ali
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showcattlegal
Well-known member
I don't know if they put him down or not, but i know there is a clone on the ground.
strawroanlova
Well-known member
wow today is the first ive heard of this
Witzke
Member
I talked to Matt Lautner and he said they put him down because he was not producing anymore and there is going to be a clone
knabe
Well-known member
the clone will be different. it is impossible to reproduce the methylation pattern he inherited from his mother. the new methylation pattern will be from the donor egg. to me, it is just as important to pick the donor egg material as it is the donor of the germ line dna. time will tell. the environmental effect is underestimated.
knabe
Well-known member
there is no such thing as an exact duplicate.
clones use a "donor" cytoplasm from another individual with it's nucleus sucked out, and the genetic material from the animal wanted to be cloned, is injected into the "nurse" cytoplasm. there is concern that methylation can be "learned" from the environment that the donor cell grew up in has information of which genes should have their expression modified, and this may in fact affect embryo development. the methylation is then signaled to inside the nucleus. methylation can be somewhat annoying.
http://www.fragilex.org/html/methylation.htm
One of the ways the cells control which genetic information they will use is to chemically modify the DNA. The illustration on the right shows an enzyme (diagrammed in ribbons) adding methyl groups to some of the DNA (balls in the form of a double helix). This inactivates that part of the chromosome. It's as if we were to put glue on the edges of some of the books in the library; those pages would become unavailable to readers.
Good methylation
In females methylation is used regularly to solve a problem. Men have only one X chromosome and women have two. As a result, female cells might be expected to make twice as much protein from the information on X chromosomes as males do. Instead, women's cells randomly pick one of the X chromosomes and turn it off by methylation. Thus both males and females have one working X chromosome in each cell and as a result, one working unit of all the genetic information on the X chromosome.
Bad methylation
As noted above, methylation is generally a useful method for turning off chromosomal information. However, in fragile X syndrome, methylation is involved in causing the disease. Near the Fragile X Mental Retardation 1 gene (FMR1) is a regulatory site called a CpG island. In most people, the site is not methylated. As a result, the cell can use the FMR1 gene when there is a need for Fragile X Mental Retardation Protein (FMRP).
these CPG islands are everywhere, and are susceptible to methylation. basically we understand nothing about this in cattle and how environment may affect this and how it is inherited and why with inputs to the cow with what she is eating, when she is eating it, selecting for cows that grow on grass, but wanting steers to gain on grain. this is very complex. i feel that some people are dead ending genetics not taking this into account and are seeing some suprising results they have no idea why they are seeing them, but they know something is going on.
what would be cool is to be able to globally analyze methylation in cow families and their offsrpring exposed to different environments, most simply fattened only on grass, fattened with a typical grass to grain system, versus as shortened fattening, all from say 20 eggs each from 4 different type females. this will come sooner than you think, and will be poo pooed. what also would be interesting is to test animals that have dominant traits for the trait of interest in both homo and hetero state and follow that as well. this methylation may be fooling us in finding linkages to traits of interest. that would be a bummer. it's tough to be thorough, and underestimated.
throw in a the twist of the ultimate steer who is a carrier for multiple genetics beyond PHA and TH, ie monkey mouth and spastic pareisis, and you are starting to multiply the conundrum rather quickly. try controlling for 4 variables in your experimental design. not for the faint of heart. that's why it's important to weed them out quickly for long term progress. i guess a steer show could evolve into selecting for embryo's that have all the defects in a carrier status with pcr on the embryo, including sex, if you want steers, but if you want to eat them, you may want a heifer, but anyway, embryologists would be making a little more money and could be sponsoring steer shows with all that extra cash. ET would then be shifted to industrialization.
clones use a "donor" cytoplasm from another individual with it's nucleus sucked out, and the genetic material from the animal wanted to be cloned, is injected into the "nurse" cytoplasm. there is concern that methylation can be "learned" from the environment that the donor cell grew up in has information of which genes should have their expression modified, and this may in fact affect embryo development. the methylation is then signaled to inside the nucleus. methylation can be somewhat annoying.
http://www.fragilex.org/html/methylation.htm
One of the ways the cells control which genetic information they will use is to chemically modify the DNA. The illustration on the right shows an enzyme (diagrammed in ribbons) adding methyl groups to some of the DNA (balls in the form of a double helix). This inactivates that part of the chromosome. It's as if we were to put glue on the edges of some of the books in the library; those pages would become unavailable to readers.
Good methylation
In females methylation is used regularly to solve a problem. Men have only one X chromosome and women have two. As a result, female cells might be expected to make twice as much protein from the information on X chromosomes as males do. Instead, women's cells randomly pick one of the X chromosomes and turn it off by methylation. Thus both males and females have one working X chromosome in each cell and as a result, one working unit of all the genetic information on the X chromosome.
Bad methylation
As noted above, methylation is generally a useful method for turning off chromosomal information. However, in fragile X syndrome, methylation is involved in causing the disease. Near the Fragile X Mental Retardation 1 gene (FMR1) is a regulatory site called a CpG island. In most people, the site is not methylated. As a result, the cell can use the FMR1 gene when there is a need for Fragile X Mental Retardation Protein (FMRP).
these CPG islands are everywhere, and are susceptible to methylation. basically we understand nothing about this in cattle and how environment may affect this and how it is inherited and why with inputs to the cow with what she is eating, when she is eating it, selecting for cows that grow on grass, but wanting steers to gain on grain. this is very complex. i feel that some people are dead ending genetics not taking this into account and are seeing some suprising results they have no idea why they are seeing them, but they know something is going on.
what would be cool is to be able to globally analyze methylation in cow families and their offsrpring exposed to different environments, most simply fattened only on grass, fattened with a typical grass to grain system, versus as shortened fattening, all from say 20 eggs each from 4 different type females. this will come sooner than you think, and will be poo pooed. what also would be interesting is to test animals that have dominant traits for the trait of interest in both homo and hetero state and follow that as well. this methylation may be fooling us in finding linkages to traits of interest. that would be a bummer. it's tough to be thorough, and underestimated.
throw in a the twist of the ultimate steer who is a carrier for multiple genetics beyond PHA and TH, ie monkey mouth and spastic pareisis, and you are starting to multiply the conundrum rather quickly. try controlling for 4 variables in your experimental design. not for the faint of heart. that's why it's important to weed them out quickly for long term progress. i guess a steer show could evolve into selecting for embryo's that have all the defects in a carrier status with pcr on the embryo, including sex, if you want steers, but if you want to eat them, you may want a heifer, but anyway, embryologists would be making a little more money and could be sponsoring steer shows with all that extra cash. ET would then be shifted to industrialization.
I talked to a fellow who said he had a share with one of the partners in the Ali bull at the Fort Worth livestock show. He told me that they took the bull every where to try and find out why he quit making semen to no avail. He offered to buy the 16 straws that I have.
I had two heifers to calf from Ali on April 10 and still have the two bulls. Both heifers never came in heat so I turned them in with a bull. I did have a bull to jump the fence once and both had second calves at 10 months after calving. I lost one of the calves as the cow had the calf up hill and she got up when I came up on her and it fell out but I was too late. I was disappointed in the growth of both calves until I realized that their mommas bred back real early and that was really good considering they were heifers. One is 3/4 registered Maine with 1/8 Chi-Angus and 1/8 Maine, and one is 1/2 registered Maine with 1/8 Chi-Angus, 1/8 Maine and 1/4 Limosin. He is gentle as a dog.
I had two heifers to calf from Ali on April 10 and still have the two bulls. Both heifers never came in heat so I turned them in with a bull. I did have a bull to jump the fence once and both had second calves at 10 months after calving. I lost one of the calves as the cow had the calf up hill and she got up when I came up on her and it fell out but I was too late. I was disappointed in the growth of both calves until I realized that their mommas bred back real early and that was really good considering they were heifers. One is 3/4 registered Maine with 1/8 Chi-Angus and 1/8 Maine, and one is 1/2 registered Maine with 1/8 Chi-Angus, 1/8 Maine and 1/4 Limosin. He is gentle as a dog.
Knabe,
In cloning aren't there still many more failures than successes. It took 277 attempts to get Dolly to be born. I have read that some of the clones are not normal as adults and that 100s of eggs might be needed to produce a close facsimile of the original. I have read that 30% of the clones of mammals are affected with a form of gigantism called "large offspring syndrome. They say some of the problems of clones might not become apparent until years.
Can you shed some light on this for us?
In cloning aren't there still many more failures than successes. It took 277 attempts to get Dolly to be born. I have read that some of the clones are not normal as adults and that 100s of eggs might be needed to produce a close facsimile of the original. I have read that 30% of the clones of mammals are affected with a form of gigantism called "large offspring syndrome. They say some of the problems of clones might not become apparent until years.
Can you shed some light on this for us?
knabe
Well-known member
dolly's numbers are used as worst case scenario bench marks in everything from telomere degenration (then ends of chromosomes that seem to indicate ageing) to number of attempts etc. suffice it to say that the first time you do anything, it's going to get better as you go.
the media likes to say the shortened telomeres is messing around too much. if you look at your telomeres they will be shorter than when you were a baby. now if you take your now genetic material and use that as donor material for a clone, doesn't it make sense that you can't elongate them? only by producing offspring can they "reelongate" this process is being heavily studied and contains some whacky funding by sham artists that are looking for the fountain of youth and is subject to fooling millionaires and beautiful people who fund this so they can look young forever. i guess the idea would be you could take some ponzi scheme drink or pill to elongate the telomeres in your body and live to be 200. i highly doubt the quality of life would be all that great from say 80-200, so when this happens, the pressure of course will be to inhibit telomere reduction once you are born.
the reason for the gigantism and other semi uncontrolled growth, sort of a semi ontogenic effect (cancerous), in my opinion, is somehow the methylation pattern from the donor fetilized egg is somehow incompatible with controlling growth from the donor dna, which after all, is methylated differently than what would be methylated were it an egg. what this ratio is, i have no idea. it probably differs between species.
what the research is to determine these different methylation patterns is, i haven't seen yet.
also what probably has been attempted is to take different cells at different stages of division
i've seen reports with success rates 10% and over meaning number of cell, nucleus fusion, dramatically better than dolly.
the most interesting thing so far i have seen about cloning is the smart little lena clones where two of the foals had parrot mouth, leading me to believe that this may not be a germ line mutation, but a methylation developmental issue, and may be the same as monkey mouth. it would be really interesting to see if this is the case. why could this occur? dna binds to proteins, dna, rna all kinds of stuff that may turn on or off genes, up or down regulate them at just the right time. getting this to dance together is not trivial when the normal selection process for this to occur has had it's timing adjusted a little bit.
to me, the value in cloning, is the offspring from clones, not the clone itself.
we should be able to see this this year with offspring from several bulls that lautner has. imagine buying the grand champion steer at a show that was from a clone and having someone put a sign on their calf saying "not a clone" instead of "drug free".
it's pretty easy to see which side the media is on any issue by how they cherry pick numbers. it takes too long to explain to people ranges of success, as the average intelligence of an average television audience is at the 6th grade level, or something similar, so the lowest common denominator is pretty low. i think they should be raising it at least a little bit and not be playing to our fears.
al gore loves to say "he played on our fears". if he could only listen to himself. typical hypocrite. see, i can turn anything into a political argument!
the media likes to say the shortened telomeres is messing around too much. if you look at your telomeres they will be shorter than when you were a baby. now if you take your now genetic material and use that as donor material for a clone, doesn't it make sense that you can't elongate them? only by producing offspring can they "reelongate" this process is being heavily studied and contains some whacky funding by sham artists that are looking for the fountain of youth and is subject to fooling millionaires and beautiful people who fund this so they can look young forever. i guess the idea would be you could take some ponzi scheme drink or pill to elongate the telomeres in your body and live to be 200. i highly doubt the quality of life would be all that great from say 80-200, so when this happens, the pressure of course will be to inhibit telomere reduction once you are born.
the reason for the gigantism and other semi uncontrolled growth, sort of a semi ontogenic effect (cancerous), in my opinion, is somehow the methylation pattern from the donor fetilized egg is somehow incompatible with controlling growth from the donor dna, which after all, is methylated differently than what would be methylated were it an egg. what this ratio is, i have no idea. it probably differs between species.
what the research is to determine these different methylation patterns is, i haven't seen yet.
also what probably has been attempted is to take different cells at different stages of division
i've seen reports with success rates 10% and over meaning number of cell, nucleus fusion, dramatically better than dolly.
the most interesting thing so far i have seen about cloning is the smart little lena clones where two of the foals had parrot mouth, leading me to believe that this may not be a germ line mutation, but a methylation developmental issue, and may be the same as monkey mouth. it would be really interesting to see if this is the case. why could this occur? dna binds to proteins, dna, rna all kinds of stuff that may turn on or off genes, up or down regulate them at just the right time. getting this to dance together is not trivial when the normal selection process for this to occur has had it's timing adjusted a little bit.
to me, the value in cloning, is the offspring from clones, not the clone itself.
we should be able to see this this year with offspring from several bulls that lautner has. imagine buying the grand champion steer at a show that was from a clone and having someone put a sign on their calf saying "not a clone" instead of "drug free".
it's pretty easy to see which side the media is on any issue by how they cherry pick numbers. it takes too long to explain to people ranges of success, as the average intelligence of an average television audience is at the 6th grade level, or something similar, so the lowest common denominator is pretty low. i think they should be raising it at least a little bit and not be playing to our fears.
al gore loves to say "he played on our fears". if he could only listen to himself. typical hypocrite. see, i can turn anything into a political argument!
Thanks.
I really enjoy your knowledge and appreciate your trying to explain it to us who are novice.
Al Gore has a genetic disorder of Big Foot in Big Mouth. Down here we call it "Hoof in Mouth Disease." George W. has the same problem sometimes. I wonder if it is related to the water they drink in Washington. In 1963 when I saw their beautiful (?) Potomac River I nearly got sick.....
Again thanks... I too think that the offspring will be the key to clones. I was amazed at how many clones that will be used this year.
I really enjoy your knowledge and appreciate your trying to explain it to us who are novice.
Al Gore has a genetic disorder of Big Foot in Big Mouth. Down here we call it "Hoof in Mouth Disease." George W. has the same problem sometimes. I wonder if it is related to the water they drink in Washington. In 1963 when I saw their beautiful (?) Potomac River I nearly got sick.....
Again thanks... I too think that the offspring will be the key to clones. I was amazed at how many clones that will be used this year.
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