and what do ya think about this, part 5

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DL

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While it is sure nice to have a homey friendly atmosphere I also think it is nice that we can have civil discussions about controversial topics that affect us in the industry. Some of these discussions are the direct result of topics published by sellers in their catalogs which are sent to hundreds if not thousands of people. If someone published their desired to retain a flush on all their sale cattle or rights to clone all their cattle this is an interesting approach open to multiple interpretations. SRU sure had a different take on it and it was one that I hadn't thought about (and although I asked if he had lost his mind I actually knew where it was so it was a rhetorical question  ;)) - as did a couple of others - the different approaches were very interesting to me -

If Rowe describes his PHA policy and we discuss and interpret it in a wide variety of ways it isn't slander and it isn't trashing - it is a discussion of different views; if Sullivans say they want rights to the genetics of all their sale animals and we discuss it - it isn't trashing and it isn't slander- it is what it is - different peoples opinions about a published statement. And while a modicum of levity is always appreciated I pretty much want to talk cattle - all aspects of cattle - health, welfare, environmental concerns, feed, prices, breeding, breeds, bulls, sales, females, traits, genetics, legal issues related to cattle and land etc etc etc

SRU is a pretty good planet cop - not so great with the computer but a pretty good planet cop - I don't see where there has been any complaining, trashing, slander etc I see some pretty good discussions where I have learned a lot - so frankly I don't see an issue and I don't find the necessity for the behavior police to tell us to be nice.....so on that note ....

Issue #6 You were asked about BW on a very popular bull - you figure that it would be easy to find as the owners have several sales so you could just pull out your catalogs - BUT low and behold no BW......none, zero, zip, nada.....what do you think??

Issue #7 You are a college kid in an ag program wanting to get into ag communications, ad design etc....a person of some importance to the industry asks you to develop an ad for him and hands you a show picture of a champion bull - the picture is a proof and has proof written across the bull - he asks you to remove the word proof and the photographers name .......what do you do? what do you think???

True issues - as always your thoughtful comments will be appreciated
(clapping)
 

Show Heifer

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#6. No birth weight listed, I assume at LEAST 100 pounds. And if it is listed I usually add 10.

#7. I think the person who asked me to lie and cheat is a complete butt, and after telling him no (and probably not so nicely) I would call the photographer and tell them about it.  I guess I would just have to starve for another week (being I am a poorly college kid that someone obviously thought they could buy off!!)

And to think I have a bad reputation by some....hmmmmmmmmmmm
 

shorthorns r us

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DL said:
(and although I asked if he had lost his mind I actually knew where it was so it was a rhetorical question  ;))

Would you mind sharing that location with me.  :p

DL said:

SRU is not so great with the computer

what is that supposed to mean?  ???
 

jason

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#7
I actually deal with this issue a lot and I do not and would not use something that I could see clearly had the word "proof" on it.  I think it is unfair to the photographer, who has to make a living to.  But, many times it may not say proof, but they do not have the rights to a photo, and there is really not much you can do.
 

DLD

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#6 - Well, there are a couple of different ways to look at this. First, yeah, I'd presume his bw's are on the high side, or at the very least unproven. But you've got to admit that omitting that information is better than lying about it, or probably even guessing at it... Lot's of people in this business don't own a set of calf scales, or if they do they rarely if ever use them (despite the fact that for most, it's simple enough to do, and they know it'd be a good thing). Some people, especially on the club calf end of things, just don't pay much attention to birth weights - many just expect to pull calves as a matter of course. Personally, I like to sleep at night (despite the fact I'm typing this at 3:20 am), and I'll probably be avoiding cattle that I have no bw info on.

#7 - I'd tell him I can't do that. If he can't afford to buy the picture, then he can't afford to be promoting the bull. If he wants me to do the ad, I'll order the print and add that into my cost, and I'll tell him that, too. The one circumstance where I might consider doing it would be if I personally ordered a print from the photographer, and even after explaining that I needed it by a certain date for an ad, it never showed up. Even then only after I'd tried (unsuccesfully) to contact the photographer to check on the status of the print I'd already paid for. (Get the idea I might've been here before???) My pet peeve about pics is paying $50 for a couple of 5x7 prints (of which they already had one on display at the show a few hours after they took the pic) and waiting 4 or 5 months for them to get around to sending them to me - I know not all livestock photographers are like that, but some sure are.
 

Jill

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#6-I would assume that they never weighed the calf, if it was just that it was over 100 they would probably have just changed it.  Have you ever looked through Lautners catalog (not trashing Lautner, lots of different owners represented) and wondered why all but about 3 of the bulls weigh under 90 pounds at birth, but they produce over 100 pound calves on a consistant basis.  I'm with DLD on this one, the BW really doesn't have any bearing on my decision to use a bull, hip structure has way more to do with calving problems from a clubby standpoint.

#7-Reproducing a photo with copyrights is a criminal offense.  Many times if you are going to use the photo for promotion and the photographer knows it will be seen nation wide they will give you the right to use it for promotional purposes, you just have to ask.
 

DL

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SRU said:
DL said:
(and although I asked if he had lost his mind I actually knew where it was so it was a rhetorical question  ;))

Would you mind sharing that location with me.  :p

We could negotiate that!


DL said:

SRU is not so great with the computer

what is that supposed to mean?  ???

I believe that you said that your son did something and now you can't figure out how to become the "HIDDEN USER" (there should be a drum roll when you say that  ;))


RE # 7 remember that we have the issue of "superior" and "subordinate" here - this guy could ruin the student career.....does that change anything??
 

knabe

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6.  assume i will be pulling, would only use for terminal unless he had something very specific i was looking for.
7.  i would just say i don't feel comfortable doing that and not preach about it.  it's an opportunity to develope a reputation.  you never know when you will run into him again under better circumstances.
 

chambero

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OK - we all buy photos from our winning show calves from photographers.  They don't say proof or anything else.  But we all scan them in and send them to magazines, post on websites, etc.  Is that copyright infringement?  How many of us actually check for permission?
 

Jill

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Yes, that IS copyright infringement, and yes, we all do it myself included, it's kind of like going 73 in a 70, you probably won't get stopped but you are still speeding. 
We usually check for permission when they are going to be seen and most photographers don't mind that.
 

JbarL

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#6....."very popular" = widely used...check progeny...kinda like pha/th  "unknown"...if used and monies avaliable for promotion/ads/pics ect,and animal been listred as "unknown" for 14 months....then there is no need to test because "unknown" actually means "untested" .   which to me means positive.
#7.....all ag students will be/are being/ should be asked this sceniero in the ad side of ag.  integrity is an important side of any business. the lesson here, and the agenda set up  is the emphasis of " a person of importance". as stated in a post a month ago or so about integrity and honesty in the "beef" industry, it has been recoganized and labeled as a "problem" wiht this generation of producers. we had a ffa ("future" farmers of america) instructor 20 yrs ago at a school in s.e. ohio that requested 2 bales of hay from each student for a test grade ( A of course).....2 X 64 students = nut dont fall to far from the teaching tree.....i'mi glad to see students get a chance at showing there true colors....some will say no imedetially....some will do all they can to please any "person of importance".  which person would we be willing to deal with in 4 years??  jbarl
 

shortyisqueen

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Scanning and using livestock photos that you purchased from the photographer is NOT copyright infringement IF, as most livestock photographs do, your photos come with permission to reproduce photos for personal use, which includes reprinting, use in ads, websites, etc. (if in doubt, best to ask your photographer what your rights are). Resale of the images as your own or removing the photographers' watermark is what will get you in hot water. Photographic copyright rules are generally pretty sticky, as they deal with the rights of the subject in the picture as well as the artistic rights of the person who took it.

As far as the removing of the word 'proof' and photographers watermark from the photo in question, since the photo is not purchased, the person giving said student the photo is violating the "permission to reproduce" rights of the photographer. Not paying = not owning any rights to the photo. The student should realize, first and foremostly, that as a designer, their future career will prosper (or not) based on their ability to develop good working relationships with people in the communications industry - photographers, printers, copy writers, etc. Any attempt to undercut these people WILL kill a career faster than anything. The design/ advertising world is a small one. In other words, by violating the law and removing the word proof, the student may please the client this one time, but that might be one of the last jobs they get. "A person of industry importance" is not worth ruining your career over.

I usually find there are several ways of dissuading a client from using 'shifty' means to accomplish their goal - in this case, the photograph is a PROOF - so explaining to the client that it is lower quality than a purchased photo, which usually come high-resolution, color-corrected, sharpened and with the 'dust removed,' sometimes gets them to spend the extra cash. Ask to talk to the photographer for them and obtain a photo that way. You're not poo-pooing their morals (although probably someone should), just explaining that no matter who they get to remove the word 'proof,' their ad will be missing out on quality due to a low-quality photograph - and therefore, if nothing but a purchased photo can solve the problem, they're not tempted to go to your less morally upstanding competition and get them to remove the word 'PROOF.'

As for the birthweights, some people don't feel the importance of cataloguing birth weight, especially when selling heifer calves. Although I tend to agree that its a sign the birthweights are not small!
 

Show Heifer

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The "superior" and "subbornate" thing just doesn't bother me. I don't care WHO it is, if it is wrong, ethically, morally OR legally, then it just doesn't matter. (Come on DL, did you expect any less of me???) :eek:
 

DL

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Show Heifer said:
The "superior" and "subbornate" thing just doesn't bother me. I don't care WHO it is, if it is wrong, ethically, morally OR legally, then it just doesn't matter. (Come on DL, did you expect any less of me???) :eek:

heavens no! and I agree 100% BUT I am aware of students (most, actually) who feel intimidated by professors or instructors etc who do things because of potential repercussions if they don't - repercussions in class or grades or their job or recommendations or whatever. They wouldn't do these things if there wasn't pressure from "the boss" or the teacher etc - it is one of those "power things" by virtue of the fact that the teacher has "power" over the student, the student is in a bad situation no matter if it is a/an illegal or immoral request or a sexual request etc - this type of thing is a big deal on campuses- it is different if the situation is between "equals" - it is slimey when it is between "unequals" and puts the student in a terrible position
 

knabe

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i will probably breed my direct midas cow to wild turkey next year.  btw telos, who do you think is straighter through the femur and stifle and looser in front of the hooks, IW or WT?
 
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