Animal welfare

[knabe]

The biggest threat to our National Security is when we as a country lose the ability to feed ourselves.

most information dense sentence i've seen in a while.  (clapping)

we are a net importer of food, so it's happening soon.

 

[Rocky Hill Simmental]

The horse industry is going down hill quick. If this "banning horse slaughter" stuff doesn't go down quick then horses and horse ranches are really going to be suffering. Lately there have been a lot of horse abuse cases because they have been demoted from livestock to "pets". Honestly, pets are a lot more likely to be abused and neglected than livestock are because livestock are food; a mean steer actually has a purpose, a mean horse no longer does.
City people don't understand this. Sure some may have a horse they board or rent somewhere but they've never had to take care of one - if they actually took care of one themselves they might find that it isn't their cup of tea. I have a friend who kept a show calf at my house while she was moving because since I enjoy raising and showing cattle, she figured she would too. So I fed and lead the calf when she wasn't around and she enjoyed showing. The next each she got another show calf and kept it at her own house - she didn't think it was so fun that next year and no longer shows cattle anymore because she actually had to work. I'd imagine a lot of those horse owners who board horses are just the same and if they had to walk in the shoes of the breeders and feeders then they'd feel different about horse slaughter.

And the PETA thing - they're getting crazier by the minute. The livestock industry can't do anything anymore without PETA holding a knife to their necks. I think evil organizations like PETA need to be stopped before they ruin everything. If just turned a bunch of cattle out in the wild that wouldn't be good - bulls would be fighting, vegetation for them, humans, and other animals would be ruined, and there would be an over population of hungry cows that keep reproducing. If PETA people had half a brain they'd probably take it would and play with it.

I think ranchers are getting discriminated against because of groups like PETA and that makes me mad because PETA is nothing except an oversized lier. City people hear all their bull and are like "oh no, things are getting killed! Let's blame ranchers!" We really need to do something about power hungry evil organizations like PETA before they wipe us out.

Sorry - but if you can't tell, I really dislike PETA. 

 

[knabe]

ok, i know this is going to sound crazy, but i'm thinking that this site can do something.  how about ideas on how to write a letter and or lobby our representatives in a professional manner, granted, we're cattle people, but some of us own horses like me.  we are essentially "organized by having a site like this.  we should be able to put something together that says the following

choice for abortion?  choice for horse slaughter
don't ruin an industry and commerce
classifying livestock as pets and the damage it does

on and on in a concise format that indicates the number of people who can sign on, there's a thousand of us for goodness sakes.  there has to be one lawyer among the members, if not a parent of a member who can help.

any ideas?

we can be a lobby for our interests and show other ag interested people how to rally around injustice.  this is not communism yet, is it?

we could even have real representatives like, uh, me, dl, cowz anyone that could be used as a contact for OUR representatives. overcoming feelings is hard, logic is the answer, and it takes even more from the representatives to resist the extremely organized peta groups.

any ideas?

 

[shorthorns r us]

ok, i know this is going to sound crazy, but i'm thinking that this site can do something.  how about ideas on how to write a letter and or lobby our representatives in a professional manner, granted, we're cattle people, but some of us own horses like me.  we are essentially "organized by having a site like this.  we should be able to put something together that says the following

choice for abortion?  choice for horse slaughter
don't ruin an industry and commerce
classifying livestock as pets and the damage it does

on and on in a concise format that indicates the number of people who can sign on, there's a thousand of us for goodness sakes.  there has to be one lawyer among the members, if not a parent of a member who can help.

any ideas?

we can be a lobby for our interests and show other ag interested people how to rally around injustice.  this is not communism yet, is it?

we could even have real representatives like, uh, me, dl, cowz anyone that could be used as a contact for OUR representatives. overcoming feelings is hard, logic is the answer, and it takes even more from the representatives to resist the extremely organized peta groups.

any ideas?

I for one will have nothing to do with anything that has any pro-choice message.  You want to stick to agricultural issues; I'm on board.  I know that there are more than a few others on here that fervently believe similarly.  I was joking around about the compound, but not this.  This is not the place for such discussion if you considered the varied audience we have.  I and millions of others like me will teach my children about such moral issues.  Not your job.  If you want to teach that to your family, go ahead.  I do not intend to IMPOSE my views upon you.  Please allow me the same consideration.  Throwing in something like that is no different from PETA imposing their views upon the public.

There goes my Karma, but I don't care; don't believe in it.

 

[knabe]

i agree with you on the right of parents to teach about some moral issues, but increasingly society doesn't, and has repeatedly demonstrated through the courts that they will teach your kids about morality and parents have to deal with it after the fact, either through being arrested for objecting, jailed etc.  if you don't think that's true, two cases were recently decided and the person who wanted choice in the manner, was denied in one case, and in the other, they got choice, but only after they were in jail for two days. If we can't call them on their metaphors, logic is useless.  there are too many voters who "feel" the slaughter is bad.  there is not much diversity of thought about the horse slaughter and time is running out.  the goal is the total elimination of humans using animals for any purpose, even pets, and they are winning.

that said, i am for what is effective, not necessarily what's not uncomfortable, that's why i'm bringing this up.  PETA's record, though not perfect, is effective, and they are winning, so on one hand, it doesn't matter if it's like PETA imposing themselves, they are winning.  in another respect, it's not like PETA, I want to impose choice, which i can't view as an imposition.  i see choice (for anything) as a dying option in society.

good points SRU

 

[renegade]

Ok get ready because i am sure a lot of people are not going to like what i have to say. I am ready to take crap after this and lose karma points but oh well. I would like everyone that is "for" slaughter to look up some sights on the matter and do a little research and then tell me how you feel.

I for one am appalled that anyone and i mean anyone would think the slaughter of horses is ok. I dont even know where to start. First just because a horse is out in the field starving doesnt mean it would go to slaughter if it was still allowed in the U.S. if they wanted to get rid of the horse they would take it to the auction barn and sell it - it would get sold to someone. Slaughtering a horse is not like slaughtering a market animal; they are a flight animal meaning they are thrashing around while some moron is trying to hit them with the captive bolt gun and even after being hit 3,4, even 5 times are not stunned - does that matter no - horses are strung up and cut open while still alive. Also when they are shipped they are placed in cattle trailers with no room to move or even put their heads up mares stallions and geldings are all shoved together causing animals to be trampled to death, badly injured, eyes taken out, and they are legally shipped for 24 hours without food water or rest and often it is longer than that nut does that matter no because they are all just old crippled horses bound for slaughter right WRONG about 90% of these animals are good, healthy young animals. As much as some would like to doubt it horses ARE much more sensisitive to thing like fear than a market animal they can smell the blood and see the other horses being killed - they aren't dumb they know what is going on.

It makes me sick to know that the two major vet assoc. in the u.s. and large horses assoc. support the slaughter of horses calling it humane euthinasia. they complain about it yet assoc. like aqha cause it by over and inbreeding. I know several university extension offices in a 50 mile radius that will incenerate your animals for if they can open them up for teaching purposes.  I can't imagine anyone beleveing horse slaughter is for the better.

Horses can be humanley put down or taken to one of many horse rescue facilities or even as a last ditch effort the auction yard - their they have the chance of going to slaughter but also of finding a nice home with someone who doesn't plan to eat them. I rescue horses and have placed many an old crippled horse. For example a 21 year old that was really navicular went to a nice roping family for their 4 year old son and a mustang mare that was crippled in the front to a young adopted girl and these people are going to keep these horses to live out their lives and if for some reason they have to get rid of them they are under contract to give us first option of buy back.

 

[farmboy]

People Eating Tasty Animals  ;D

 

[renegade]

what does that mean ???

 

[justintime]

Renegade, you are not alone in your feelings about horse slaughter, as many of my horse owner friends felt exactly the same until they started to see what is happening in the horse world in the US In the past year, many of them have completely changed their minds on this issue and several of them are working hard to keep the horse slaughter plants open in Canada.  Slaughter of horses is a hard thing for many to think about because of their beauty and grace, and their links to people. We are hearing reports of many horses being taken into the country side and released in several areas of the US, since the ban. Some of these reports may be blown out of proportion, but it is still something that is only going to get worse especially in areas where drought and feed shortages exist. I have friends who regularly sell some pretty good paints and quarter horses at sales in the US and they say the prices have dropped drastically. There will always be a place for the top horse breeders and the top sales they have will continue. The smaller breeders who sell a few good horses each year are the ones who is going to take the big hit, and some small fortunes may be lost in the process.
Here in Canada, we still have a horse slaughter, but we are being lobbyed big time to follow the US lead. Personally, I don't much like the thoughts of slaughtering horses, but I do know that it is a much superior way of keeping the horse numbers reasonable than  allowing horses to starve or get old, sick and injured. Just like with people.... there are often many things worse than death. This may sounds like a very cruel thing to say, but if you don't believe me, stop by a level 4 nursing home in your community and see people who are tied into beds and tied into chairs and force fed. Sometimes death is the ultimate release. I apologize for discussing some issues that are not nice to talk about. Horse slaughter is never a nice topic to discuss, but it does have a place in the industry.

Recently, on a trip to Toronto, I turned on the radio in my rented car and tuned in just in time to hear a PETA offical being interviewed. The radio interviewer  asked him, if they were to be able to legislate rights for all animals, would there be a need for PETA to continue. This tree hugging fruit cake, replied that if they ever get all animal issues dealt with, they will then start to deal with some plant issues because " alfalfa's have rights too". To me, that basically told me all I need to know about thisradical finge that defraud sympathetic people of their wealth.

Although I have only written about horses here, I think we all need to be very concerned about what may be coming down the road for all livestock producers. If you aren't concerned about this, spend some time talking with producers who live in states such as Montana and Colorado. The West ain't like it used to be... and it probably will never be the same again. Livestock people are without any doubt the best naturalists, and conversationalists and provide the best care and human treatment of the animals under their care. We really do not need some pot smokin'  urbanite to tell us how to do this.

 

[farmboy]

thats my PETA  ;D

 

[Doc]

  Renegade, I can understand how you feel to a degree. There is a real good article in last months Western Horseman magazine , about the horse slaughter market. I can just speak for part of the country , but there is no hay , no pasture in my part of the world & most people with 1 or 2 backyard horses wait until the last minute to buy hay. When you go to a local horse sale & full grown horses are bringing $100-$150 & the same guy is buying a potload , you know they're not going to his backyard. No, they're going to be shipped to Mexico(where there is NO inspections or rules at their slaughter houses.) or to Canada (where I understand they do inspect their plants). Now if they are going to be slaughtered any way which would you rather happen, have them stay in the US , trucked 150 to 250 miles & go to a plant with standards or trucked to Mexico 1,200 miles away in a 135 degree trailer to a plant with no standards? I've had horses all my life & I don't think I could eat one , but I sure can't stand to see them starved & I'm afraid that's what going to start happening more & more.

 

[DL]

Well I knew this would be a good topic!

I think the biggest challenge re animal welfare is both us and them - us because we are so used to doing things we don't realize how it might look to an outsider or a "city slicker" (ever go anywhere with a bunch of physicians - they talk about all sorts of gross stuff at dinner and it never occurs to them that not every one talks about blood and guts and pus while eating pasta ) and them because most/many of them do not understand where there food comes from. Another issue I think is that if consumers believe something - no matter if it is based on emotion or fact or the phase of the moon - that perception can change how places (ie McDonalds) do business and that affects farmers.

PETA is an extremely well funded celebrity heavy organization with an agenda - while I deplore many of their tactics they have forced farmers, scientists and others to examine animal well being in the context of welfare.

Do I find some of the things that are done in agriculture deplorable - you bet I do - I also find some of the things we do to human beings deplorable. As responsible stock people we need to examine what we do - should we really be tail docking dairy cows? force feeding geese? dehorning calves at 12 months of age? Not allowing dairy cows to graze? Allowing sows to stand in one position in gestation crates? Not letting pigs outside to engage in normal behavior? Is there something that you do routinely that maybe would look bad that maybe you should rethink?

The arguments we use are "oh we can't put the sows together they are too aggressive" - and of course it is us humans that selected the traits that just seem to go with aggression. We also argue that we need to house birds or pigs this way because if they were outside we couldn't prevent or contain an infectious disease - again we selected for animals who may not have the finest immune system. And finally we say "of course their welfare is taken care of - they are gaining weight" - well maybe they are bored and have nothing to do but eat, not to anthropomorphise but if one was to examine the welfare of the millions of overweight Americans would gaining weight be a sign of good welfare?

I believe in many instances the horse industry in the US has lost sight of the real goal - somewhat like the various shelters dotting the landscape - IMHO the quality of life is the prime concern - quality of life for the animal, not something that makes people feel better. In reality sometimes a quick death is a far superior option than lingering, than suffering - we cannot save every horse on the planet - there is not enough money, people, space or food to save them all - people have this perverse notion that death is always a bad thing and because of this they allow animals to suffer - I see that as a significant human flaw. What some do in the name of love for animals borders on appalling.

We all have to decide what is and isn't acceptable - if we don't clean our own house then the gov't will clean it for us and surely will be a huge mess.

 

[renegade]

I agree with a lot of  what dl said. Also the over population,starving,abuse, bottoming out of the market ect. isn't due to the ban of horse slaughter it is overbreeding by "horse breeders" like the ones that breed mare after mare and do nothing with them and those people that know nothing about horses that want a foal because it is cute and it stands out in the field for two or three years and nothing is done with them. Also big associations are looking for the "perfect" animal and over breed (also some will take a new foal out and it will get a two by four to the head for things like blue eyes or to much white etc.)

Yeah there are things worse than death but i wouldn't call the things i described better than death. I am not saying horses shouldn't be put down or killed but should there last days be like that and if we weren't shipping this meat out of the country(europe and japan) there wouldn't be a market and that bugs me. There really is no easy fix but i don't think this is the answer. Please just look it up and tell me your opinions then - really please - i don't think your opinion would be the same.

Dl is talking about the things we do to livestock for our sake (and i see her point - at the fair i was talking to a dairy breeder that said she really hates the tail docking) so do you think that what they endure before and during slaughter is any better? Things like the captive bolt gun and how they haul them is horrific. Those are the things we need to change

 

[DL]

Temple Grandin almost single handedly changed the way animals are slaughtered for food - the facilities are audited and several of the many things they observe for (that indicate potential stress or inadequate welfare) is/are vocalization, movement of animals, and number of animals not killed immediately with the bolt - I frankly do not believe that in most instances horses are repeatedly bolted -

Consider this - if you have your horse euthanized with a barbiturate it will cost you a vet call and the cost of the drug - plus you must bury the horse (different states have different laws) so that its carcass is unavailable to predators - (this of course says nothing about water quality) - if you don't do  that and a bald eagle eats the carcass and dies you are subject to a $10,000 fine and so is the vet - a bullet is significantly cheaper and if properly used is quick and painless - to most people it is easier to believe that they are "doing a good thing" by letting their no longer useful horse out to "run free and be a horse" - they do not have the guts to do the right thing - so they delude themselves into thinking that if the horse (or dog or cat) is free in the country it will have a better life

Yes I agree there are too many people breeding horses, as well as dogs and cats - there are probably too many people having too many kids that they are not able to care for - but this is the US of A and we cannot legislate who procreates what species - people need to take responsibility for their actions and realize that if they let Fido or Fluffy or Black Beauty to run free in the country they are not only irresponsible but they are cowards of the worse type and they have no sense of what animal welfare is and their actions speak so much louder than their words - they really don't give a dam* about the animal but only themselves....

stepping off the soap box now to deal with the continued rain ----

 

[renegade]

When saying humanly euthinized i consider a shot to the head humane euthinasia. I know a dude ranch in oregon (there are 2 there and one in nevada i think) that we have gotten about 20 PMU mares from. They have/had 700 horses , they will go to canada and bring back trailers full of pmu mares and foals. They started to thin their herd a little and brought us some mares but any way they have three or four sharp shooters on staff that they use when the horses need to be put down. They could easily take them to meat and make some money but don't. I have seen horses slaughtered and a lot of times it does take at least two shots.

 

[Show Heifer]

If it takes more than one shot to "euthanize" a horse, the shooter needs to get glasses...or just is a sick person that likes shooting things.

I have a cow, ram and a horse, that when the day has arrived, each will be "put down" with a very carefully located shot to the head. It won't be me doing it, as I not only don't know where to shoot, but would miss due to the tears and bawling I would be doing. But, I will see that it is done, and done right.

One of the problems with "our" industry is "we" are quick to point out someone elses problems and "issues". Cattlemen say  hog confinments are bad, pork producers say cows over graze the land, and everyone blames the sheep producers for the BSE problem.  Our competitors (animal rights activist), have done the war strategy perfectly: Divide and Conquer.  Don't shoot at the group, but pick them off, one by one, by one.
And what are "we" doing about it? Nothing.....yeah the cattleman's assoc and farm bureau are good at defending an issue, but what about going on the offensive? Attack first. Show video of horses starving to death, show the sow eating her piglets, show the video of the brush fires which are basically ungrazed land that is overgown. 
SHOW OUR SIDE OF THE STORY FIRST. SHOW IT OFTEN. If they have the money to attack our way of life, can we not come up with the money to defend it?????? We can do more, we just don't want to as it would be too uncomfortable.

 

[Jill]

I tell you what, you better write this day down, Show Heifer and I agree on this one (clapping) that was great.

 

[justintime]

Show heifer.... I could not agree more with your comments. I think they should be sent to anyone who has livestock  on their farms. Thanks for expressing your thoughts so elequently ( sp) 

 

[knabe]

after rethinking the original question, "what do you think is the number one animal welfare issue facing animal agriculture today?", my answer is idealism and ag's obsession with focusing on each other rather than those who would seek to destroy them. 

 

[DL]

Let me play devil's advocate - I don't think the animal rights groups care about our lifestyle - theirstated concern is "animal rights" - my concern is animal welfare. I have always had a problem with the concept of we must all do this because we are all in this together, and if we don't they will divide and conquer.

Does this mean that if I think force feeding geese to make fois gras for the rich is a welfare issue I need to keep those thoughts to my self for the good of our way of life? If I think tail docking dairy cows and allowing upward of 70% of these confined cows to walk around lame is not in the best interest of the cow that I should be silent for the good of agriculture? If I think gestation crates do not allow pigs the freedom to move and express their normal behaviors I should keep that to myself? If various equine training methods are cruel I should ignore this? Your thoughts?