Below average Angus Bull?

[Durham]

Interested in thoughts on this bull. He is an EXT son out of a cold pedigreed, low numbered, pathfinder cow. His numbers are mostly below breed average in most traits. He has individual performance that is way above average for the herd he was raised in and posted a 17.8 REA that adjusted to 16.5. IMF was low in his contemporary group, possibly due to his age of 14 months and his extreme masculinity. Is it better to have great cattle with average numbers or average cattle with great numbers??? Interested to hear opinions.

 

[rarebirdz]

For us we put a lot of weght on the scan #s but even more on structure that bull is pretty much ideal imo

 

[kfacres]

depends on what your goal is, what your cowherd has, and what the bull actually breeds like...

I think most numbers are unbelievable- from the standpoint they are so easily manipulated, but in a breed such as the Angus- that is much harder to do. 

 

[CMB]

That's a great looking bull! I usually lean in on the a few "numbers" like BW, MM, and like to see an average WW and YW. I let the bull do the rest phenotypically. I rely a lot on physical make up. It's always a plus to have all the numbers be average or above. It all depends on what you want out of him. I really like him and I would use him.

 

[LostFarmer]

Good cattle are good cattle and it doesn't take a list of numbers to tell you that.  Talked to a purebred Angus breeder that was turning over his cows to keep the current pedigrees and updated EPD's running.  Then he found out he could make sim-angus cattle with those "throw away" cows that had been good producers.  Thought it interesting that cows that had numbers that were past prime became useful again. 

If I am looking at 2 bulls and like them both then I will use numbers as a guide.  Start breeding too much paper and you are single trait selecting and you will end up in a wreck!

 

[Mill Iron A]

Older cows drop off in numbers because they don't have the progeny numbers bulls do. This bull has a really good chance of after being used hard going up drastically. Numbers are only as truthful as the people that enter them and they don't account for a ton of economically  relevant traits that are only evaluated visually. If your customers trust you thenyou should be able to use him without worry.

 

[Aussie]

Our numbers EBVs and yours are formulated differently so if my post does not make sense that is why. After a small amount of research I would decide.  .

• Have his dams progeny been leaders in the herd (has she produced good bulls and replacement females.What are they like phenotypical).
• Is the herd large or small and how much AI has been used ( a smaller closed herd has poorer figures but sometimes have a better handle on their breeding.)
• What does the raw scan and HD50K results tell you
• How have the bulls the operation has sold before performed in the "real world"
• Has this bull been raised in an environment similar to where you normally buy yours and has he and his contemporaries really been all raised the same
• Do you like the bull
• Will he improve your herd

Good cattle are good cattle and it doesn't take a list of numbers to tell you that.  If I am looking at 2 bulls and like them both then I will use numbers as a guide.  Start breeding too much paper and you are single trait selecting and you will end up in a wreck!

I agree with Lost Farmer. For what it is worth he looks good figures or not. Small herds are often over looked but many work hard at their breeding and can offer a good alternative and sometimes a good out cross to larger herds. I have one and put alot of selection pressure on my herd and bulls because I don't have room for passengers.

 

[Durham]

  This bull is an anomily. He weighed 1860 on the 29th of Feb in a group thataveraged 1420.He is still gaining 3.8 lbs. /day and has done so since weaning on a ration targeted for 3/day. His back feet are nearly flawless in design. It is just interesting to me as how many people are unwilling to consider such a potential changer because of a set of numbers with a .05 accuracy figure. Time will certainly tell the story. I think I will breed a bunch of cows to him and see what happens.

 

[HelenH]

Sharp looking herdbull.  Long, smooth and straight lines.  Nearly waste free below the elbow.  Age and birth weight not given.  I would concider his actual BW and dam's udder design and function before use.  To explain his fast development, an Igenity profile may reveal a low residual feed intake requirement coupled with high ADG ability.  Two very important economic traits.  Cows with this combination really do well after weaning and quickly gain weight for winter.  EXT is an interesting bull;  very popular and has produced great cattle.  His own performance would hardly save him from the stocker pen.  But perhaps there is a reason behind this, other than linebreeding.

 

[Limiman12]

In the retriever world, a dog that out performs his pedigree is bred with caution at first as people don't trust a shallow pedigree.  Sometimes the dog is a fluke and does not breed anywhere near what he is.  But the ones that do produce tend to be very prepotent studs in that they put their stamp on their offspring and they breed as well or better then deeper pedigreed dogs.

I would think the same would be true here, breed him on a mixed bag of cows and see what he does.  You will know what you have when the calves come.

 

[heilig]

What's his ced? Calving ease and yearling weight are the important numbers everything else is overrated IMO. It sounds like hes above average for yw. if he's calving ease I'll take that bull anyday.

 

[kfacres]

everything else is overrated IMO.

just depends on what your goal is: 

In my personal cowherd- we sell almost every single calf that we do not keep back for a replacement-- as a feeder calf.. In my eyes- the weaning weight is the most important EPD available, and the others are overrated, but that's just IMO> 

I know that all EPDs are important= maybe not to everyone-- but to some every EPD is just as important as others; regardless- all are valuable tools...

Now with that said- if EPDs have extremely low accuracies- and a pedigree or phenotype such as this bull: then one would wonder if his EPDs are actually accurate. 

 

[heilig]

everything else is overrated IMO.

just depends on what your goal is: 

In my personal cowherd- we sell almost every single calf that we do not keep back for a replacement-- as a feeder calf.. In my eyes- the weaning weight is the most important EPD available, and the others are overrated, but that's just IMO> 

I know that all EPDs are important= maybe not to everyone-- but to some every EPD is just as important as others; regardless- all are valuable tools...

Now with that said- if EPDs have extremely low accuracies- and a pedigree or phenotype such as this bull: then one would wonder if his EPDs are actually accurate. 

Ya but a high yw means a high ww right?

 

[kfacres]

everything else is overrated IMO.

just depends on what your goal is: 

In my personal cowherd- we sell almost every single calf that we do not keep back for a replacement-- as a feeder calf.. In my eyes- the weaning weight is the most important EPD available, and the others are overrated, but that's just IMO> 

I know that all EPDs are important= maybe not to everyone-- but to some every EPD is just as important as others; regardless- all are valuable tools...

Now with that said- if EPDs have extremely low accuracies- and a pedigree or phenotype such as this bull: then one would wonder if his EPDs are actually accurate. 

Ya but a high yw means a high ww right?

]

most certainly not... early maturing cattle may record an 800 lb weaning weight- and a 1000 lb yearling... 

where at the same time, slow maturing may only be 400 at weaning and 1500 at yearling

most often it's correlated: but not always.