Breeding on ability of the Shorthorn color pattern

[kfacres]

Many years ago, a very high quality set of folks who show the local fair curcuit showed a blue roan purebred Sim heifer.  I always swore she must have been bred up from some shorthorn blood-- but they swore she was purebred Sim, and had zero shorthorn blood in her. 

Of course, since they also raise shorthorns, I kinda doubted them-- maybe the wrong straw of semen, or the bull jumped the fence.. but I never called them out.. They'd never done anything wrong to me to doubt them.. but they swore that heifer was purebred.

Well, with an open herd book, all purebred cattle have SOMETHING back in the wood pile, so to speak. The definition of "Purebred" means the animal's ancestry goes back to other stock, and the animal was bred up from cattle from one or more other breeds, even possibly commercial crossbred cattle! And in that case, there may not be anyone who can tell you what breed or breeds make up the history of the family.

A purebred is at least three generations back to a purebred Simmental parent, and though the rules and guidelines have changed a little over the years and are less strict now than they used to be, it's still three generations to purebred. The blue roan heifer I'm talking about goes back four generations to a 3/4 blood red, blaze faced Galant daughter out of a black baldy cow. Her mother's sire I know less about, but according to the papers, was out of a fullblood bull (meaning import bloodlines from Europe...no "breeding up" or other breeds involved) and was several generations of purebreds on the dam's side back to a cow considered to be 3/4 SM 1/4 Angus... All the bulls on the top side were fullbloods. The funny thing about this whole story to me was that this cow's grandmother-out of a solid red blaze faced 3/4 SM cow and a yellow, fullblood SM bull--was a lemon yellow baldy with goggle eyes and two very strangely shaped white spots on one side...they were shaped like bits of biscuit dough left over after your Grandma cut out the biscuits. I always found her markings interesting and strange. Her daughter was a blood red blaze faced heifer with a white belt that came up from her belly all the way across her loin and a red saddle coming back into the belt from the top of her shoulders. Even stranger than her mother... The red baldy was that cow's daughter and was plainly marked...I remember hoping for something more interesting and getting a plain red baldy with one red eye. I still have no idea where the roan came from!

I did buy another solid black cow in Kentucky once who was bred to DS Zinger when I bought her. The calf was born solid black, and by weaning time, I had noticed a few white hairs in the middle of her face. I ended up consigning her to the North American sale in Louisville, and she eventually roaned out all over. I'm pretty sure the guy who bought her thinks she was part Shorthorn, and I didn't BREED that heifer so all I had to go on was that I bought her mother bred to Zinger...I never knew quite what to make of that situation either, but as far as the heifer was made, she definitely looked like a Simmie...not a Shorthorn.

These people claimed this heifer DID NOT trace back to shorthorn blood=- just as you claim...  She was straight fullblood Sim and Angus.

 

[kfacres]

Here's the listing I have been looking for:

Special thanks boys--

Milking Shorthorn Society- lays claim to 8 Shorthorn colors and 13 non- Shorthorn colors-- for a grand total of 21 Color options to choose from... Kinda puts shame to the beef guys.

 

[leanbeef]

Many years ago, a very high quality set of folks who show the local fair curcuit showed a blue roan purebred Sim heifer.  I always swore she must have been bred up from some shorthorn blood-- but they swore she was purebred Sim, and had zero shorthorn blood in her. 

Of course, since they also raise shorthorns, I kinda doubted them-- maybe the wrong straw of semen, or the bull jumped the fence.. but I never called them out.. They'd never done anything wrong to me to doubt them.. but they swore that heifer was purebred.

Well, with an open herd book, all purebred cattle have SOMETHING back in the wood pile, so to speak. The definition of "Purebred" means the animal's ancestry goes back to other stock, and the animal was bred up from cattle from one or more other breeds, even possibly commercial crossbred cattle! And in that case, there may not be anyone who can tell you what breed or breeds make up the history of the family.

A purebred is at least three generations back to a purebred Simmental parent, and though the rules and guidelines have changed a little over the years and are less strict now than they used to be, it's still three generations to purebred. The blue roan heifer I'm talking about goes back four generations to a 3/4 blood red, blaze faced Galant daughter out of a black baldy cow. Her mother's sire I know less about, but according to the papers, was out of a fullblood bull (meaning import bloodlines from Europe...no "breeding up" or other breeds involved) and was several generations of purebreds on the dam's side back to a cow considered to be 3/4 SM 1/4 Angus... All the bulls on the top side were fullbloods. The funny thing about this whole story to me was that this cow's grandmother-out of a solid red blaze faced 3/4 SM cow and a yellow, fullblood SM bull--was a lemon yellow baldy with goggle eyes and two very strangely shaped white spots on one side...they were shaped like bits of biscuit dough left over after your Grandma cut out the biscuits. I always found her markings interesting and strange. Her daughter was a blood red blaze faced heifer with a white belt that came up from her belly all the way across her loin and a red saddle coming back into the belt from the top of her shoulders. Even stranger than her mother... The red baldy was that cow's daughter and was plainly marked...I remember hoping for something more interesting and getting a plain red baldy with one red eye. I still have no idea where the roan came from!

I did buy another solid black cow in Kentucky once who was bred to DS Zinger when I bought her. The calf was born solid black, and by weaning time, I had noticed a few white hairs in the middle of her face. I ended up consigning her to the North American sale in Louisville, and she eventually roaned out all over. I'm pretty sure the guy who bought her thinks she was part Shorthorn, and I didn't BREED that heifer so all I had to go on was that I bought her mother bred to Zinger...I never knew quite what to make of that situation either, but as far as the heifer was made, she definitely looked like a Simmie...not a Shorthorn.

These people claimed this heifer DID NOT trace back to shorthorn blood=- just as you claim...  She was straight fullblood Sim and Angus.

Hmmm... Well, that makes me wonder what color patterns we might have in the fullblood Simmies that we don't recognize. It's always been accepted that Simmental obviously have the spotting gene which isn't fully understood. And those cattle range anywhere from almost solid white to practically NO white...and from deep cherry red to light lemony yellow. So maybe included in that gene pool is a gene for roaning that is capable of being masked for several generations and cropping up when nobody expects it.

 

[kfacres]

Many years ago, a very high quality set of folks who show the local fair curcuit showed a blue roan purebred Sim heifer.  I always swore she must have been bred up from some shorthorn blood-- but they swore she was purebred Sim, and had zero shorthorn blood in her. 

Of course, since they also raise shorthorns, I kinda doubted them-- maybe the wrong straw of semen, or the bull jumped the fence.. but I never called them out.. They'd never done anything wrong to me to doubt them.. but they swore that heifer was purebred.

Well, with an open herd book, all purebred cattle have SOMETHING back in the wood pile, so to speak. The definition of "Purebred" means the animal's ancestry goes back to other stock, and the animal was bred up from cattle from one or more other breeds, even possibly commercial crossbred cattle! And in that case, there may not be anyone who can tell you what breed or breeds make up the history of the family.

A purebred is at least three generations back to a purebred Simmental parent, and though the rules and guidelines have changed a little over the years and are less strict now than they used to be, it's still three generations to purebred. The blue roan heifer I'm talking about goes back four generations to a 3/4 blood red, blaze faced Galant daughter out of a black baldy cow. Her mother's sire I know less about, but according to the papers, was out of a fullblood bull (meaning import bloodlines from Europe...no "breeding up" or other breeds involved) and was several generations of purebreds on the dam's side back to a cow considered to be 3/4 SM 1/4 Angus... All the bulls on the top side were fullbloods. The funny thing about this whole story to me was that this cow's grandmother-out of a solid red blaze faced 3/4 SM cow and a yellow, fullblood SM bull--was a lemon yellow baldy with goggle eyes and two very strangely shaped white spots on one side...they were shaped like bits of biscuit dough left over after your Grandma cut out the biscuits. I always found her markings interesting and strange. Her daughter was a blood red blaze faced heifer with a white belt that came up from her belly all the way across her loin and a red saddle coming back into the belt from the top of her shoulders. Even stranger than her mother... The red baldy was that cow's daughter and was plainly marked...I remember hoping for something more interesting and getting a plain red baldy with one red eye. I still have no idea where the roan came from!

I did buy another solid black cow in Kentucky once who was bred to DS Zinger when I bought her. The calf was born solid black, and by weaning time, I had noticed a few white hairs in the middle of her face. I ended up consigning her to the North American sale in Louisville, and she eventually roaned out all over. I'm pretty sure the guy who bought her thinks she was part Shorthorn, and I didn't BREED that heifer so all I had to go on was that I bought her mother bred to Zinger...I never knew quite what to make of that situation either, but as far as the heifer was made, she definitely looked like a Simmie...not a Shorthorn.

These people claimed this heifer DID NOT trace back to shorthorn blood=- just as you claim...  She was straight fullblood Sim and Angus.

Hmmm... Well, that makes me wonder what color patterns we might have in the fullblood Simmies that we don't recognize. It's always been accepted that Simmental obviously have the spotting gene which isn't fully understood. And those cattle range anywhere from almost solid white to practically NO white...and from deep cherry red to light lemony yellow. So maybe included in that gene pool is a gene for roaning that is capable of being masked for several generations and cropping up when nobody expects it.

if it is true on the reds-- in which it takes one single hair to make the genotype-- truly a roan--- then who's to say that doesn't work with black either? 

I have always wondered how the spotting gnee works in shorthorns-  are they reds with spots, roans with big spots, whites with red spots?  How do they breed, and what is their genotype?  Maybe the spotter Sims-- really are 'roan"?  Who knows? 

 

[leanbeef]

Nope...I can say fairly confidently that the spotting gene in Simmental and the roan gene in Shorthorn are two very different genes. Obviously, back to the subject of an open herd book, we do have Shorthorn genetics in our cattle, and obviously some roaning genes associated with that population. But I'm wondering if there might be another roaning gene--whether it's different from, similar to or exactly the same as the roaning gene in Shorthorn cattle--that is associated with fullblood Simmental cattle from Europe. I think it's also possible that because some of these cattle do have ancestors that came from commercial crossbred stock, there's a chance that a Shorthorn could have been in there somewhere and not recognized, and in that case, Shorthorn could be the origin of all the roan genes in the Simmental population. Unless there are other breeds that carry a roan gene...none come to mind, but with over 200 breeds...Normandy, maybe? Something like that?...I'm not that familiar with a lot of those.

 

[kfacres]

Nope...I can say fairly confidently that the spotting gene in Simmental and the roan gene in Shorthorn are two very different genes. Obviously, back to the subject of an open herd book, we do have Shorthorn genetics in our cattle, and obviously some roaning genes associated with that population. But I'm wondering if there might be another roaning gene--whether it's different from, similar to or exactly the same as the roaning gene in Shorthorn cattle--that is associated with fullblood Simmental cattle from Europe. I think it's also possible that because some of these cattle do have ancestors that came from commercial crossbred stock, there's a chance that a Shorthorn could have been in there somewhere and not recognized, and in that case, Shorthorn could be the origin of all the roan genes in the Simmental population. Unless there are other breeds that carry a roan gene...none come to mind, but with over 200 breeds...Normandy, maybe? Something like that?...I'm not that familiar with a lot of those.

I know they are different genes-- but my question is refering to can the spot gene mask the roan gene?  Shorthorn talk mainly-- not Sim.  Aweful lot os spotted shorthorns making all kinds of colors. 

 

[leanbeef]

Nope...I can say fairly confidently that the spotting gene in Simmental and the roan gene in Shorthorn are two very different genes. Obviously, back to the subject of an open herd book, we do have Shorthorn genetics in our cattle, and obviously some roaning genes associated with that population. But I'm wondering if there might be another roaning gene--whether it's different from, similar to or exactly the same as the roaning gene in Shorthorn cattle--that is associated with fullblood Simmental cattle from Europe. I think it's also possible that because some of these cattle do have ancestors that came from commercial crossbred stock, there's a chance that a Shorthorn could have been in there somewhere and not recognized, and in that case, Shorthorn could be the origin of all the roan genes in the Simmental population. Unless there are other breeds that carry a roan gene...none come to mind, but with over 200 breeds...Normandy, maybe? Something like that?...I'm not that familiar with a lot of those.

I know they are different genes-- but my question is refering to can the spot gene mask the roan gene?  Shorthorn talk mainly-- not Sim.  Aweful lot os spotted shorthorns making all kinds of colors. 

Oh, some genes can always mask other genes! There you get into dominance and co-dominance, and I think expression is always a little "interpretive"...meaning there's the theoretical by-the-book way a dominant gene should manifest or be expressed, and there's what we actually see, which is ACTUAL expression of the genetic make-up with respect to dominance and co-dominance. The Simmental spot gene in a recessive gene, but I think there's a lot more to it than simple dominant/recessive, one gene decides what they look like kind of thing. When there are all kinds of different possible patterns involved, who knows what all decides all that? Home much of that might be random organization of the cells that determine color? And how much is actually decided by the genetic coding? I think there's a quite a bit to learn about all that.

 

[NHR]

Here's the listing I have been looking for:

Special thanks boys--

Milking Shorthorn Society- lays claim to 8 Shorthorn colors and 13 non- Shorthorn colors-- for a grand total of 21 Color options to choose from... Kinda puts shame to the beef guys.

The milking shorthorn purebred colors are even more confusing. How do you determine dark roan compared to light roan. The 3 additional purebred colors are useless.

 

[kfacres]

Here's the listing I have been looking for:

Special thanks boys--

Milking Shorthorn Society- lays claim to 8 Shorthorn colors and 13 non- Shorthorn colors-- for a grand total of 21 Color options to choose from... Kinda puts shame to the beef guys.

The milking shorthorn purebred colors are even more confusing. How do you determine dark roan compared to light roan. The 3 additional purebred colors are useless.

you look at the animal.  dark roan vs. light roan.. I think that's an extremely important aspect of shorthorn identity. 

 

[NHR]

Here's the listing I have been looking for:

Special thanks boys--

Milking Shorthorn Society- lays claim to 8 Shorthorn colors and 13 non- Shorthorn colors-- for a grand total of 21 Color options to choose from... Kinda puts shame to the beef guys.

The milking shorthorn purebred colors are even more confusing. How do you determine dark roan compared to light roan. The 3 additional purebred colors are useless.

you look at the animal.  dark roan vs. light roan.. I think that's an extremely important aspect of shorthorn identity. 

Dark Roan to me means a darker red while light roan to me means a lighter red color!

 

[NHR]

Wildside bull is what I call a White Roan. So we need to add more color definitions....

 

[kfacres]

Here's the listing I have been looking for:

Special thanks boys--

Milking Shorthorn Society- lays claim to 8 Shorthorn colors and 13 non- Shorthorn colors-- for a grand total of 21 Color options to choose from... Kinda puts shame to the beef guys.

The milking shorthorn purebred colors are even more confusing. How do you determine dark roan compared to light roan. The 3 additional purebred colors are useless.

you look at the animal.  dark roan vs. light roan.. I think that's an extremely important aspect of shorthorn identity. 

Dark Roan to me means a darker red while light roan to me means a lighter red color!

you must be the only person in the world who does not know that light and dark roan means the ammount of red..

People wonder why shorthorns have problems?  Shorthorns have people who like to argue, and cannot use their head.

Myself included.

I'm pretty sure that many other country's Shorthorn ass'n also follow a very similar color code chart to the AMSS's. 

 

[NHR]

Here's the listing I have been looking for:

Special thanks boys--

Milking Shorthorn Society- lays claim to 8 Shorthorn colors and 13 non- Shorthorn colors-- for a grand total of 21 Color options to choose from... Kinda puts shame to the beef guys.

The milking shorthorn purebred colors are even more confusing. How do you determine dark roan compared to light roan. The 3 additional purebred colors are useless.

you look at the animal.  dark roan vs. light roan.. I think that's an extremely important aspect of shorthorn identity. 

Dark Roan to me means a darker red while light roan to me means a lighter red color!

you must be the only person in the world who does not know that light and dark roan means the ammount of red..

People wonder why shorthorns have problems?  Shorthorns have people who like to argue, and cannot use their head.

Myself included.

Im not arguing with you, I'm stating that there are no set standard definitions anywhere that I can find that define color patterns. I have heard them called totally different then what either of us had discussed. What you call Dark Roans I know people that call them Cherry Roans. Since I raise Beef Shorthorns all I have to worry about is Roan! Its the R/W and R/W/M colors that you can get into real arguing.

So if someone finds 1 roan hair is the the animal a Roan?

 

[kfacres]

Here's the listing I have been looking for:

Special thanks boys--

Milking Shorthorn Society- lays claim to 8 Shorthorn colors and 13 non- Shorthorn colors-- for a grand total of 21 Color options to choose from... Kinda puts shame to the beef guys.

The milking shorthorn purebred colors are even more confusing. How do you determine dark roan compared to light roan. The 3 additional purebred colors are useless.

you look at the animal.  dark roan vs. light roan.. I think that's an extremely important aspect of shorthorn identity. 

Dark Roan to me means a darker red while light roan to me means a lighter red color!

you must be the only person in the world who does not know that light and dark roan means the ammount of red..

People wonder why shorthorns have problems?  Shorthorns have people who like to argue, and cannot use their head.

Myself included.

Im not arguing with you, I'm stating that there are no set standard definitions anywhere that I can find that define color patterns. I have heard them called totally different then what either of us had discussed. What you call Dark Roans I know people that call them Cherry Roans. Since I raise Beef Shorthorns all I have to worry about is Roan! Its the R/W and R/W/M colors that you can get into real arguing.

So if someone finds 1 roan hair is the the animal a Roan?

O, I agree with you 100%.  I think that the generation that I'm in-- doesn't know b/c it seems that nobody cares enough to tell us, or make us care.  I talk to the old timers- especially those from the dual registering days-- and they'll throw a fit if you don't call a strawberry roan, that, or a light roan that... 

Technically, if you find that roan hair-- she is roan genetically-- but visually-- I suppose you'd have to register her as red-- unless that roan hair is above the belly and then it would be Red with little white. 

 

[garybob]

It would be genetically impossible for a white Shorthorn bull to breed all white progeny unless he was mated exclusively to white cows.

That would be Danny Knust, in Marshfield, Missouri. Had a bull out of a CCS White Tornado cow from Brockmueller's and, I think, the ol' Blizzard bull of Frank Kaehler.

GB

 

[kfacres]

It would be genetically impossible for a white Shorthorn bull to breed all white progeny unless he was mated exclusively to white cows.

That would be Danny Knust, in Marshfield, Missouri. Had a bull out of a CCS White Tornado cow from Brockmueller's and, I think, the ol' Blizzard bull of Frank Kaehler.

GB

Does he go by something else nickname?  When I was at Laban's-- he was telling me about this guy down there who had AI'd with Flashback-- then Garris asked me- and he knew exactly who I was talking about.

 

[RyanChandler]

If a predominately red animal is born with ANY white on them at my place, they will be registered R/W/M. 

not quite... found this.
http://shorthorn.org/Images/registration/expguides/colorreference.pdf

Shorthorn beef side has 5 options, correct... 

I'll be dam. I still think it's deceiving to call an animal red if there are clearly white markings. Owell.

 

[aj]

Harold Good was big in studying red cattle pedigrees and striving tor raise truly red ones.

 

[cedarcurve]

Thought this thread is interesting!