I agree Throttle. WMW was dead in the water until HW X WMW happened more than once. If I'm looking at cattle and WMW is involved somewhere in the pedigree, I look @ structure long and hard. Take for example Alias, good bull, you hear and see quite a few real goods early on, but not very many closers out of him. You are starting to see some Alias young cows seeming like they may work, but I don't usually find good structure in the Alias calves. If Sonny had lived an old life and semen was 20 bucks, can you imagine how many Sonny cows would be walking around? I know I would have to have a bunch. The one common thread that most of the bulls in the Elite 8 are maternal, all but HW, of coarse he is very, very hard to get around in a steer showring. Looking @ Cunia's structure, was he on the verge of being a buckler? Brent