Buying Bull through the Auction Mart

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TPX

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This happened a few years ago.  We have a guy in our area that tries to sell bulls off his farm as purebred red angus even though he doesnt have a papered cow or a angus membership.  Well one of our neighbours bought one cause they were cheap but suprise the bull didnt breed a single animal b/c he wasnt semen tested and he never could breed do to a testicle injury.  So we rented him a bull for the rest of his breeding season.  Well the guy obviously didnt stand behind his bull so the next year he took him to the auction mart to sell for slaughter.  Well the day before the sale he got a phon call from some other local guy that toured the aucion mart looking for a bull and saw this bull and really liked him and wanted to know more about him.  So the neighbour told him that he was a good bull and said he bred good and that they just didnt have a use for him anymore b/c he was a heifer bull and they werent breeding any heifers this year.  So the guy bought the bull and took him home and semen tested him and suprise he didnt pass (infact the vet told him remembered this bull from last year) well the guy was made at my neighbour but we both thought that i was quite funny.  The thing that made me mad was the auction mart and them giving out the information about who brought the bull knowing that the guy that was buying him was going to breed cows to him.  As a guy that sells registered red angus bulls this gets me b/c some people say that its the breed and they wouldnt buy one of those bulls again.  I did have an argument with the aucition mart manager about it asking how come they give out this info and also why he wouldnt try to convince people to not but market bulls for breeding when the local pure bred breeders support that auction mart very well.


 

TPX

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137
Yes the neighbour lied to him.  I think that it was the right thing to do b/c as a bull seller if you want a good breeding bull you do not go to the auction mart.  There are lots of breeders in our area that raise good bulls and stand behind that product and we all have a bottom end of our sales we still stnad behind those bulls and they all pass the test and will be breeders.
 

knabe

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i just got something for nothing the other day.  felt great, now everyone's to the left of center.
 

Doc

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TPX said:
Yes the neighbour lied to him.  I think that it was the right thing to do b/c as a bull seller if you want a good breeding bull you do not go to the auction mart.  There are lots of breeders in our area that raise good bulls and stand behind that product and we all have a bottom end of our sales we still stnad behind those bulls and they all pass the test and will be breeders.
 
  OK, let me get this straight. You're saying it's OK to outright lie about the status of a bull. I'm sure going to rush to buy an animal from you, before I do just let me know where you draw the line on lying. Is it on birth wgts, birthdates, weaning wgts or what.
I know it can be frustrating when they go to the yards to buy a bull, instead of from you or your neighbors, but I sure don't see where that justifies lying to the guy. Instead I would have told him the truth & then told him about the bull I had at the house for sale that looked just like that bull that WOULD settle cows. He might have earned a customer for life , instead of an enemy for life. If you don't want anybody buying your bulls at the yards for herd bulls, then callicrate band them & tell the yard guy they are sterile. You've done everything in your power at that time . JMO :)
 

showsteerdlux

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TPX didn't lie. His neighbor was sold a sterile bull which was supposed to be a breeder and wasn't and then the neighbor sold it to someone saying that he was a breeder. I think I've got it correct.
 

DLD

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???

Guess I don't get this at all. You don't think the sale barn (auction mart as you say) should be allowed to tell buyers where the cattle they sell came from? I don't believe I'd want to buy (or sell) at one that wouldn't tell.

I can understand just a little bit that you're jealous of the fact that some people buy bulls from there, but it's a simple fact that some folks do. Quite a few around here in fact, and I expect that's true everywhere. Maybe they think it's a better deal, maybe they just don't know or want to bother with going anyplace else. Where we sell, they ask when you unload if you're selling him for slaughter or for breeding - if you're selling him for breeding that means you're guaranteeing him to semen test good, or they'll test him for you before he sells - if you say for slaughter, then the buyer takes their chances if they want to try to use him. It's not at all uncommon for someone to bring in a bull or a group of bulls that are semen tested and guaranteed good and come with at least some breeding information (like bw and breed(s) and bloodlines). I've sold a few that way myself, usually ones I've used a little while and ended up buying something else I liked better- I'm not in the bull selling business, and it's just easier to haul one to the sale barn than to keep him around and try to peddle him. A very large nationally known purebred ranch sometimes brings yearling bulls in, often a pot load at a time, and sells them "for slaughter only". I know of several people who've tried a few of those - some will work out alright, but many won't breed at all, or have very bad tempraments, or are just plain poor quality.

Bottom line is your neighbor lied, and I don't find any humour in it. It's bad for everyone involved. If I was the guy that got lied to, I won't be buying anything from the guy that sold him, or any of his known associates. I might even tell my neighbors about it, too, and chances are some of them'll feel the same way.
 

shortyisqueen

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TPX said:
This happened a few years ago.  We have a guy in our area that tries to sell bulls off his farm as purebred red angus even though he doesnt have a papered cow or a angus membership.  Well one of our neighbours bought one cause they were cheap but suprise the bull didnt breed a single animal b/c he wasnt semen tested and he never could breed do to a testicle injury.  So we rented him a bull for the rest of his breeding season.  Well the guy obviously didnt stand behind his bull so the next year he took him to the auction mart to sell for slaughter.  Well the day before the sale he got a phone call from some other local guy that toured the aucion mart looking for a bull and saw this bull and really liked him and wanted to know more about him.  So the neighbour told him that he was a good bull and said he bred good and that they just didnt have a use for him anymore b/c he was a heifer bull and they werent breeding any heifers this year.  So the guy bought the bull and took him home and semen tested him and suprise he didnt pass (infact the vet told him remembered this bull from last year) well the guy was made at my neighbour but we both thought that i was quite funny.  The thing that made me mad was the auction mart and them giving out the information about who brought the bull knowing that the guy that was buying him was going to breed cows to him.  As a guy that sells registered red angus bulls this gets me b/c some people say that its the breed and they wouldnt buy one of those bulls again.  I did have an argument with the aucition mart manager about it asking how come they give out this info and also why he wouldnt try to convince people to not but market bulls for breeding when the local pure bred breeders support that auction mart very well.

Where to start?

1. It is terrible that a person in your area is selling lower quality bulls without a guarantee, but suggesting they were lower quality because they weren't papered is absurd. Many outfits sell un-papered bulls that are great and stand behind them 100%. Having a registration paper does not mean quality is inherent and just because you register does not make you better than the nearest cattleman who doesn't. If someone has bred a certain breed of cattle for long enough that they are 'purebred' status, they have every right to sell them under any title they choose. Your neighbor and the fellow who sold him the bull are both at fault - the seller for selling something of poor quality and the buyer for buying the cheapest thing on the market and not doing his homework.

2. Your neighbor lying to the next buyer and passing on the problem is despicable. We all have the choice to take the high road or stoop to the gutter, and I'd say that was probably the later. Instead of giggling that the person who bought the bull at the auction mart got what he deserved for buying a cheap bull, perhaps you should consider the following: Because the buyer was not advised the bull was infertile, he bought the bull, instead of potentially coming to your house to shop (which he may have been forced to do if he couldn't find anything at the auction mart). Furthermore, if you or your neighbors that sell good quality bulls have any faith in your own genetics, you will be able to shrug off people going to buy the 'el-cheapo' bull at the Auction Mart. It will take one bad one for them to wonder why they had a calving wreck or their calves were 200 pounds less at weaning time, and they will be back at your bull pen. If they don't wonder, they probably won't be in the business long anyways.

3. The local purebred breeders support the auction mart, but likely, so does everyone else. For the auction mart manager to fight your battle and 'convince people not to buy market bulls for breeding' would be economic suicide for him. His job is to get the cattle traded to the highest bidder. If this means selling the bull for breeding, then that's what he's going to let happen. Furthermore, the auction mart manager probably thought he was drumming up another buyer for the bull. If it is pushed the price up by another $0.10/pound, the auction mart would make more commission and the seller would make more money.
 

justintime

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I do not want to condone anyone buying their next herd bull at a sale barn, but occasionally you do see some excellent herd sires go through. My dad worked at a local sale barn for many years when I was a kid. One day he saw an impressive bull come through. It turned out to be a former Grand Champion bull at a major bull sale. The owner was there and he spoke with him and found out that he was selling him as he had sold most of his cows due to poor health and was only keeping a few daughters. Dad purchased the bull and he was probably one of the best herd sires we used back then. I wish I had semen on him as I think he would be extremely popular today.

When we were still feeding cattle, we used to feed mature bulls occasionally. A order buyer put 400 mature bulls in our lot one fall and I was  amazed at the number of quality herd sires that were in the pen. I remember a couple of horned Hereford bulls that came from southern Alberta that were two of the best bulls I have ever seen . All these bulls were purchased from sale barns, and while none of them were resold for breeding purposes, many of these bulls certainly could have been.

There is no law that restricts anyone where they can buy a bull to use in their herd. I think a sale barn manager telling anyone who the seller is, is only doing his job. I oftentimes ask who the seller is, if I see a good set of heifers or steers. I have also seen sale barns announce who the seller is in cases where the seller has developed reputation stock. The sale barn manager's job should be to help sell the cattle that come to his business... and that included bulls that do not have papers.

Lying to anyone will only come back to bite you in the butt. I agree that it bothers me when I see people buying their herd bulls out of the sale barn,when I have a pen of bulls at home. But this  only serves as incentive for me to promote and advertise my bulls even more. You have to develop your own reputation for your cattle, and not worry about the few that buy at the sale barn. When I look at all the bulls available to any cattle owner in my area, it would be easy to think that I will not sell any bulls at all. I will have about 700 bulls offered for sale at auction in the next few months, within 50 miles of my farm. I doubt if these will all find new homes, but I plan to do everything in my power, to promote my bulls and find new homes for them. In the event that some don't sell, at least I know that I did my part to try and market them properly. I have only had one year in the last 8 years when I did not sell all my bulls. This spring may result in some remaining here unsold, but I will not know that until the breeding season is over. In the meantime, I will try to do my part in getting them moved to new owners.

In most cases, the guy who buys a herd sire at the sale barn is not a a quality potential bull buyer to you or anyone else. These guys are cheap and are only concerned about getting their cows pregnant and they have no breeding program at all. Most likely they would not buy a good bull for a decent dollar anyways. I find this discussion no different than having to deal with one of my neighbours who leases about 50 bulls each year at $400 per bull, or others who sell bulls at $1100. I have no idea how these guys figure that they are making any money... as they obviously aren't, but they continue to do this year in and year out.
 

knabe

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justintime said:
I find this discussion no different than having to deal with one of my neighbours who leases about 50 bulls each year at $400

in the old days, guys in oklahoma would do this.  my great grandfather's neighbor did this for a living, but he WAS poor.
 

itk

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May 6, 2007
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KS
justintime said:
I do not want to condone anyone buying their next herd bull at a sale barn, but occasionally you do see some excellent herd sires go through. My dad worked at a local sale barn for many years when I was a kid. One day he saw an impressive bull come through. It turned out to be a former Grand Champion bull at a major bull sale. The owner was there and he spoke with him and found out that he was selling him as he had sold most of his cows due to poor health and was only keeping a few daughters. Dad purchased the bull and he was probably one of the best herd sires we used back then. I wish I had semen on him as I think he would be extremely popular today.

When we were still feeding cattle, we used to feed mature bulls occasionally. A order buyer put 400 mature bulls in our lot one fall and I was  amazed at the number of quality herd sires that were in the pen. I remember a couple of horned Hereford bulls that came from southern Alberta that were two of the best bulls I have ever seen . All these bulls were purchased from sale barns, and while none of them were resold for breeding purposes, many of these bulls certainly could have been.

There is no law that restricts anyone where they can buy a bull to use in their herd. I think a sale barn manager telling anyone who the seller is, is only doing his job. I oftentimes ask who the seller is, if I see a good set of heifers or steers. I have also seen sale barns announce who the seller is in cases where the seller has developed reputation stock. The sale barn manager's job should be to help sell the cattle that come to his business... and that included bulls that do not have papers.

Lying to anyone will only come back to bite you in the butt. I agree that it bothers me when I see people buying their herd bulls out of the sale barn,when I have a pen of bulls at home. But this  only serves as incentive for me to promote and advertise my bulls even more. You have to develop your own reputation for your cattle, and not worry about the few that buy at the sale barn. When I look at all the bulls available to any cattle owner in my area, it would be easy to think that I will not sell any bulls at all. I will have about 700 bulls offered for sale at auction in the next few months, within 50 miles of my farm. I doubt if these will all find new homes, but I plan to do everything in my power, to promote my bulls and find new homes for them. In the event that some don't sell, at least I know that I did my part to try and market them properly. I have only had one year in the last 8 years when I did not sell all my bulls. This spring may result in some remaining here unsold, but I will not know that until the breeding season is over. In the meantime, I will try to do my part in getting them moved to new owners.

In most cases, the guy who buys a herd sire at the sale barn is not a a quality potential bull buyer to you or anyone else. These guys are cheap and are only concerned about getting their cows pregnant and they have no breeding program at all. Most likely they would not buy a good bull for a decent dollar anyways. I find this discussion no different than having to deal with one of my neighbours who leases about 50 bulls each year at $400 per bull, or others who sell bulls at $1100. I have no idea how these guys figure that they are making any money... as they obviously aren't, but they continue to do this year in and year out.

We sold a former Louisville Champion at the sale barn and you should have seen the look on the workers faces when he stepped off of the trailer. He was still producing quality semen and could have covered cows however he was getting some age and lacked the motivation to do so. Someone might have got a heck of a deal if they would have bought him and he bred a few cows but chances are he would have just stayed under a tree all summer.
 

TPX

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I geuss the reason that I thought it was alright is b/c I know the guy that bought the bull at the mart and he is very crooked.  And alot of these guys that buy bulls through the auction mart turn around and resell them as breeders and sure these bull look alright but lots of them develop humps and sore shoulders within a week of turning them out with cows.  Also some of these people that buy these bulls are very quick to bash breeds and breeders since some of us have a very noticable brand and then they tell all there buddys but they fail to mention that they bought the bull at the mart.
 

knabe

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it's still not alright, fighting a free lunch mentality and the market forces that reinforce it are a free market marketers worst enemy.  it's why guarantees were invented, which simply mitigate risk by sharing it.

perhaps one could come up with a marketing idea in which some breeders got together and offered some lower cost bulls for sale at the auction house with an ad

"tired of buying bulls that don't breed?
tired of passing on STD's to your herd?
tired of wasting your time?
.......

all bulls sold come with a breeding guarantee, and have all the other health guarantees.

follow up with buyer contacts and a business card in hopes of selling some better bulls at higher prices private treaty.

keep repeating this, as the free lunchers will always harken back to "i knew an old timer who bought bulls at the auction, and he made out by buying more than one in case one was sterile or some other nonsense"  there's a reason oldtimer logic is around, it never has to hold up it's logic to market forces. 
 

JSchroeder

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If he'll bash the breeder for a bull with their brand on it, you just made darn sure they'll say every bad thing about you and your friend they can think of from now on.

Throwing crap on a pile of crap only makes the barn smell worse.
 

red

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we sold a really good son of our red cow. He was to go through an Ohio cattleman's sale. Failed his sperm test although he had produced semen & calves before. They collected on his first ejaculation of the year & wouldn't give us a redo. Long story short we took him to sale barn that was selling bulls. Didn't make our floor so we were loading him up. A guy came to us in parking lot & wanted to buy him. Told him entire story. He was fine w/ it. spoke to him a year later & had an outstanding crop of calves from him on the ground.

Red
 

knabe

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cowboy, dl, any data on first collection being a waste anyway.  did this in college of the holstein herd bull at poly and the first shot was not as good as the second for number and motility and mutants
 
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