Calf with stiff knees in womb wouldn't come out correct?

[JTM]

Just wanted to share this story to see if anyone has experience with this. I had a first calf heifer (Shorthorn) bred to our Angus calving ease sire. I noticed her in labor which was well before we thought she was due. Long story short, the calf was full term, but it was coming tail first. Called the vet, tried for an hour to get two back legs, realized calf had been dead for over 24 hours because of smell, had to start pulling one back leg and it ripped off. Then was able to get the other back leg and get the rest of the bull calf out. Thankfully, the heifer survived the ordeal alright. I noticed the bull calf's front legs were both curled back somewhat in a similar fashion. Nothing looked too crazy but I said something to the vet. He tried to straighten the legs and they wouldn't straighten out. The knees were stiff and the legs would only straighten so far. I mentioned rigamortous but he thought it was a structural defect in the front legs. I have no clue, never had this happen before. After the vet left I began thinking, well if the calf couldn't straighten his front legs then there is no way that he could have been delivered normal and that is why it died and started coming tail first. This was the first calf from this bull but there have been two other heifer calves born with no problems. Anybody have any experience or thoughts on this issue?

 

[olsun]

This sounds much like a genetic defect in charolais cattle in the 70's. It was called Orthrogryposis, and I'm sure that I didn't spell it rigt. Back then the Char assn. worked very hard to isolate and eliminate the defect. To have one delivered was very difficult, and I don't recall any of them surviving. What you had may not be the same, but it sure sounds like it.

 

[JTM]

Thanks for the reply. Wondering if anyone else has any info?

 

[DL]

Hey JTM - joints on dead calves don't move - if the calf had been alive the legs would have most likely straightened out during delivery (after all there is only so much room and most backward calves will not have their front legs out straight in utero) - if this calf was dead enough to have the back leg pull off and smell it was dead enough to have it's joints not move easily FWIW

 

[JTM]

Hey JTM - joints on dead calves don't move - if the calf had been alive the legs would have most likely straightened out during delivery (after all there is only so much room and most backward calves will not have their front legs out straight in utero) - if this calf was dead enough to have the back leg pull off and smell it was dead enough to have it's joints not move easily FWIW

Yeah, that's what I am hoping is the case. Thanks for the reply.

 

[vet tech]

i agree with your vet. they used to call this contracted tendons. i've pulled some dead calves and never had one with the carpi flexed or contracted. what many call the knees are really the carpi (plural for carpus) the knee is what we call the stifle.  if it was due to rigor mortis you would have been able to straighten them with some force. it might have been genetic or congenital. why these things happen is often never known no matter how many experts you ask. make sure your mineral is correct and use a different bull. i've been sending some samples to a pathologist lately and it has yielded a wealth of information.

 

[JTM]

i agree with your vet. they used to call this contracted tendons. i've pulled some dead calves and never had one with the carpi flexed or contracted. what many call the knees are really the carpi (plural for carpus) the knee is what we call the stifle.  if it was due to rigor mortis you would have been able to straighten them with some force. it might have been genetic or congenital. why these things happen is often never known no matter how many experts you ask. make sure your mineral is correct and use a different bull. i've been sending some samples to a pathologist lately and it has yielded a wealth of information.

Thanks for the feedback. This is exactly what I didin't want to hear. I would be interested in any additional information you can provide on this issue. I own the Black Angus bull that sired this calf. This is his first calf crop and he is just now two years old. The thing is, if this is a genetic problem, I have about 22 yearling heifers that I am getting ready to let him breed this summer. His three calves that have come this year have been pretty small. We only had the problem with the one bull calf. I need to have some more evidence of this being a genetic problem so that I can make a decision to get rid of the bull and get another one. I paid pretty good money for this bull too, I'm not sure what to do at this point. Any more info would be great!

 

[vet tech]

i'll se what i can find out. one person i want to ask is dr. john beaver, if he does'nt know maybe he can tell me where to go.  dr. beaver is the vet that does the testing for th and pha and i'm sure many other things. yesterday i ate dinner with an in-law from ky. that works on a large thoroughbred farm where they foal 100+ mares. without being prompted he started telling me about several foals they had with contracted tendons  in the front legs and how miserable it was to get them out.  if it is genetic it's possible that the problem is with the cow. many problems are congenital, just problems or errors in developement resulting from nutritional deficiencies or stresses during gestation.  in one of our cow groups we had about 15 calves, one has severly straight back legs, so bad we may have to put it down. all the others are fine, i'm not getting rid of the bull.  i hate to be the one that tells someone what they didn't want to hear, my gut feeling is that the bull is o.k., let me do some checking.

 

[Jenny]

I would think it would be a recessive gene with both cow and calf as carriers.....

 

[DL]

Lets find a genetic defect under every rock - eh? It is a very dead calf, it likely had it's front legs under it in utero - had it been alive when it was born they would have straightened out some or all the way when there was room to do so - contracted tendons is not an autosomal recessive defect it is tendons that are too tight and most times as the calf stands and walks and runs they lengthen and life is good. Sometimes we splint them. Without a complete necropsy this is just a dead calf

There is as you know a lethal recessive defect in Angus called arthrogryposis multiplex (AM)  -the mutation has been identified and there is a test -  it traces to GAR Precision 1680 - there have as far as I know no cases seen in other than Angus cattle ie no reason to believe this is a Shorthorn problem

 

[zak]

I had a tiger woods heifer that was born with contracted tendons this year. Both front legs toed in pretty bad and one back leg. The vet said it was just how she was positioned in the womb and could only be corrected with surgery.


Zak

 

[JTM]

Thanks again for all the replies. I also kind of doubt that the problem would be a recessive gene defect. I don't think it is a lack of mineral or anything like that. Hopefully it's just a dead calf that's been in that position for a long time. What I would be most worried about is that the bull has some kind of structural co dominant defect or something like that. Don't even know if I know what I am saying. I will try to update when the other three have their calves. All three are also purebred Shorthorn heifers. Thanks.