Can anyone explain this.....horned angus

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Show Heifer

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I realize I might have missed a genetics class or two, but....

I was at a cattle sale the other day, and they had several heifers sired by purebred angus AI sires. Over half of them had HORNS, not even scurrs, but HORNS.

How can this be possible? From my brain cells I recall "real angus" throwing only polled cattle, regardless of what the cow side was (if I recall this is even a selling point for angus)...so whats up with this????? :-\
 

TJ

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I can... the papers may say Angus, but they are not actually 100% pure Angus. 

Most likely another bull "jumped the fence" & then jumped back where he came from before the breeder caught it!   ;)  However, the horned animal may be several generations back, so unless you use  DNA, it would be hard to prove exactly which breeder actually has the "bad fence" or who "accidently & unkowingly" grabbed the wrong semen & AI'd a few of his Angus females with the semen that he bought for his club calf herd.   ;)   

Wonder how many of those "accidents" happen???  ;)
 

Cowboy

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Good grief, you trully  A R E  still alive and hopefully WELL  :eek: (clapping)

Genetics -- 101 and upward -- OH MY !!

All kidding aside, the real old time ANGUS from Aberdeen absolutely were all polled, and sired polled cattle every time. Then, the phenom of "Let's inject 1/32 Chi and/or Holstein" in there took affect, behind the sceanes of course, back in the 70's I would guess. WHY?? Competition with the new and improved pheno types being placed first by the kill plants -- big was better!!!

To get the added frame they now wanted or needed to compete with the newly arrived Chi's and Simmi's, those good little black Angus had to be discreatly crossd, one generation at a time untul they still looked and acted Angus, but were significantly larger. Notall were crossed, but alot were and we all know it.

Bulls such as Pine Drive and Cobble Pond New Yorker were two that had let's say questionable backgrounds WAY back. These bulls as an example would at times sire scurs, that was fact, plus some added white!

The horned Gene is or at least WAS completely dominant for many hundreds of years. The vast majority of breeds started out as horned cattle -- most true breed still are today. So, even though a pure bred modern Angus is crossed with the horn gene carrying crossbred cow, some could comeout horned.

I know this year in my own herd, I used GF Mile High Max on several cows -- ALL were polled and from polled cows that were from polled cows. BOTH of the hfrs -- one from a Oscar 711xChill FactorxForeplay (All Polled) was horned, as was her 7/7 sister from the original Foreplay. Solid horns. Max is a horned bull carrying a very strong horned gene - my guess is from the Sugar Ray background. These two calves were the first two born from these two cows ever having horns. Go figure!

I think it is even more probamatic to explain when a polled bull is used one crossbred cows, even polled ones, that some times they come horned. I think the F-1 cross will almost always be the easiest for them to get the horns off of, it is the later crosses (2nd, 3rd, 4th breed cross) that it seems to simply come back to life and is less preditable!

Now that I have totally confused you even further -- my job is done for the day -- hehehehe!

Hope all is well in Iowa big J --- tell the nieghbors I am still here -- snowed today already -- turning 54 the 26th, jeez, how could that be -- I was 25 yesterday!!!!  ::) ::)

Happy Thanksgiving to A L L  --

Terry and gang   (clapping)

(TJ posted his response while I was typing mine, sorry if it counterdicts any where -- to lazy to edit!! hehe)
 

TJ

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Cowboy said:
All kidding aside, the real old time ANGUS from Aberdeen absolutely were all polled, and sired polled cattle every time. Then, the phenom of "Let's inject 1/32 Chi and/or Holstein" in there took affect, behind the sceanes of course, back in the 70's I would guess. WHY?? Competition with the new and improved pheno types being placed first by the kill plants -- big was better!!!

You nailed it...
 

DLD

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Certainly what Cowboy (good to see ya, btw) and TJ said are right, but my first thought would be that those weren't actually out of said pb Angus AI sires, but rather a not so pb Angus clean up bull. Maybe that was accidental, maybe it was wishful thinking...
 

xxcc

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The horned Angus, I have never seen, but it doesn't surprise me.  Coming from the heart of Angus country, I have seen just about everything in regard to an "oops" in Angus genetics.  Particularily when at one time, Simmental and Maine genetics were used so widely.

Cowboy is right about the Holstien injection.  How do you think the old orginal Black baldies showed up on the first generational crossing?  As far as I knew, the wives tale around here was that the Angus breeders cheated in the 50s with Holsteins to increase the Milk in Angus cattle.

What I have seen, and this is where I really started to pay attention to what was going on, was in regard to one particular program.  A prominent Simmental breeder decided to start selling halfblood bulls sired by Angus.  His cow herd was predominantly smooth polled.  He used bulls like Rito 6I6, 2V1, 1I2 and 1I1...and scurs showed up.  Almost every time, the bulls had scurs, but all of his purebred Simmi bulls were polled.

I used a bull, GAR US Premium Beef.  The bull calves had scurs.  I have never had a horned calf from an Angus, but I have seen Maine sired females out of "PB Angus" cows and they were horned, so the Angus had to have the horning gene.  I think those cattle went back to GV Power Drive and some other similarly bred bulls.  I don't know for sure, but it seems that Jim Leachman influenced a lot of these questionables.  One bull that I can totally tell you that someting is up with is VRD.  Those cattle are the farthest thing from true Angus.

If you want true Angus, I think you have to buy them from breeders that are true to bloodlines like Wye breeding.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Cowboy said:
Good grief, you trully  A R E  still alive and hopefully WELL  :eek: (clapping)

Genetics -- 101 and upward -- OH MY !!

All kidding aside, the real old time ANGUS from Aberdeen absolutely were all polled, and sired polled cattle every time. Then, the phenom of "Let's inject 1/32 Chi and/or Holstein" in there took affect, behind the sceanes of course, back in the 70's I would guess. WHY?? Competition with the new and improved pheno types being placed first by the kill plants -- big was better!!!

To get the added frame they now wanted or needed to compete with the newly arrived Chi's and Simmi's, those good little black Angus had to be discreatly crossd, one generation at a time untul they still looked and acted Angus, but were significantly larger. Notall were crossed, but alot were and we all know it.

Bulls such as Pine Drive and Cobble Pond New Yorker were two that had let's say questionable backgrounds WAY back. These bulls as an example would at times sire scurs, that was fact, plus some added white!

The horned Gene is or at least WAS completely dominant for many hundreds of years. The vast majority of breeds started out as horned cattle -- most true breed still are today. So, even though a pure bred modern Angus is crossed with the horn gene carrying crossbred cow, some could comeout horned.

I know this year in my own herd, I used GF Mile High Max on several cows -- ALL were polled and from polled cows that were from polled cows. BOTH of the hfrs -- one from a Oscar 711xChill FactorxForeplay (All Polled) was horned, as was her 7/7 sister from the original Foreplay. Solid horns. Max is a horned bull carrying a very strong horned gene - my guess is from the Sugar Ray background. These two calves were the first two born from these two cows ever having horns. Go figure!

I think it is even more probamatic to explain when a polled bull is used one crossbred cows, even polled ones, that some times they come horned. I think the F-1 cross will almost always be the easiest for them to get the horns off of, it is the later crosses (2nd, 3rd, 4th breed cross) that it seems to simply come back to life and is less preditable!

Now that I have totally confused you even further -- my job is done for the day -- hehehehe!

Hope all is well in Iowa big J --- tell the nieghbors I am still here -- snowed today already -- turning 54 the 26th, jeez, how could that be -- I was 25 yesterday!!!!  ::) ::)

Happy Thanksgiving to A L L  --

Terry and gang   (clapping)

(TJ posted his response while I was typing mine, sorry if it counterdicts any where -- to lazy to edit!! hehe)

The Holstein and Chi blood runs pretty deep in some of the black lines and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some simmi and maine and who knows what else thrown in for good measure. But we still call them purebreds? Really horned angus are no different from any of the breeds that started out red or yellow or what ever and and now are predominantly black, they may be closer to being first cousins than you think even if they are register as different breeds.
  Happy Thanks Giving to all, The ground is white here this morning. Cowboy - Happy Birthday a little early, I turn 45 on the 26th too. Sad to think that my daughter is almost as old as I think I should be......

 

Show Dad

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RW & Cowboy - Happy Birthday!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

RW - Do you think that those w/horned genes will or should be culled out of the breed like the "red" gene was?

("red" does not refer to our mostly famous and resident karma queen Red)  ;)
 

aj

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I think with all the high tech testing being developed that the micky mouse stuff could be detected. But do you punish someone who who's genetics where tainted 10 generations back. I was told by an exectutive secretery of a breed of cattle that the angus tried to kick out some cattle in roughly the70's. The cattle were breed by a oil co. herd. The co. threatened a lawsuit that would have bankrupted the angus assc. so they backed down. I was told that in the old test's that chi would stand out in say angus cattle. Since the maine anjou were related to the shorthorn it was hard to police that deal. I think the future is about raising good cattle. We as a industry are now chasing marbling cattle and etc.. If they pass the standards they will have a passing grade. Angus cattle should be homo zygous polled period. What it is is what it is. :-\
 

CAB

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Those darn black Angus cattle. You never know what "recessive gene" might show up next. Heck you may even get a red angus with horns now I'm told. Go figure. I'm kinda glad that the Maines & Shorthorns aren't the only breeds to have the recessive genes. It gives us more to yak about. BTW, I had to de-gas the show heifer again yesterday. She's now sorted off by her lonesome, being backed down and restarted. We'll see if we can get her straighten out.LOL, NOT. Happy Thanksgiving to all of my board friends. HAPPY B-DAY TERRY. Cab.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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If any one tries to sell you a "horned" red angus - run as fast as you can and call the assn. - it is NOT a purebred red angus animal, I don't care who the seller is!
 

DL

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WOW! Say horned Angus and everybody comes out of the woodwork - Happy B day Cowboy  & RW - remember the old saying you're not getting older you are getting better! Also remember JIT and I are the senior member of this illustrious group and we would be delighted with a modicum of respect - after all sometimes it is amazing that you get to be where you are!  XXCC how are ya? (clapping) (clapping)

If somebody tried to sell me a horned RA or Angus I would run like heck - after all if the breed requires polled and you aren't then you aren't. Hype and shifty appear to be everywhere!

Hope everyone had a good and safe Thanksgiving
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Show Dad said:
RW & Cowboy - Happy Birthday!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

RW - Do you think that those w/horned genes will or should be culled out of the breed like the "red" gene was?

("red" does not refer to our mostly famous and resident karma queen Red)  ;)
I absolutely believe that if a breed is supposed to be homozygous polled, any animal that is not should be culled as well as any progeny he or she has produced. Polled does not mean horned or scurred!
 

CAB

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DL, just curious, what makes you think that you & JIT are the seniors of this group? Is it about how immature or mature that we all act sometimes or is it a more defined # sort of thing? Maybe we should have a guess how young you think we are contest. LOL.
 

Joe Boy

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This past year I bred a polled Maine bull to an Angus cow.  My bulls had always produced a polled calf by her, but she and polled Maine produced a horned calf...the bad part is, I send the calf in as polled and had to have it corrected when I sent in the weaning weight....

Happy birthday.......my land lord's wife and my brother's birthday will be the 27th... she will be 68 and he will be 59.....

In 1975 Dr. Davis who worked for the A & M research at San Angelo told me that in Colorado some Holstein had been bred into the Angus to give them length, height and more production.  Some friends of mine near Pratt, KS bought some bulls from these people and the calves had some white on their udders.  Their dad gave them a hard time, as until that time he had never seen an Angus with white on it.  They never had any horns but I can imagine that someone who bought bulls from them and bred them to Herefords might have seen horns.

At the same time it became common knowledge that Angus bulls had to be looked at serious for calving ease.  Prior to that even horned Hereford breeders used them to calf out heifers.  That was no longer a given.

Herefords brought in Semmi's at the same time to increase in the same areas.  Today they have been used to produce pigment around the eyes to prevent cancer.

It must be remember that no breed today is pure but has been bred up form bringing in certain genetic traits from other breeds.

Sheep and hogs are even worse than cattle IMHO.

Good to see some of you on here... I have missed your great contributions.
 

Cowboy

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For the record -- I believed the "Getting older - Getting Better" thing when I turned 40, thought I was invincible even! Hah !!!

Now looking seriously at 54, I realize I have achieved the point of "BEST", and I am whole heartedly set on maintaning what I have become. Makes ya wonder some times though when you go out to breed or flush a cow like you have thousands of times with little or no thought -- only to find out it ---------- HURTS LIKE HELL -- heheheheh!!

The mind is always eager, willing and anxious -- the old(er) body is some times on strike or at least seeking a new contract!!

Oh well, back to the jist of things.

I was on the Minnesota regional FFA judging team in 1969 when we took 2nd in state that year overall -- a great accomplishment for me. I was 3rd individual in state that year. I remember the day we went to the Austin kill plant for Hormell to judge the semi finals -- the class of steers presented were MUTT - JEFF -- and PUDD PUDD !!

Jeff was an easy Top -- new age genetics - taller - leaner - longer -- less fat in the brisket etc etc.

Mutt was a close second for reasons, just not QUITE as fancy appearance wise.

Then came the standard old line streers -- PUDD & PUDD -- I missed the only 1 point deviation on the bottom pair for reasons only -- the class was paced 3-1-2-4 as I remember. On the rail PUDD 1 (3rd) had .95 back fat, with PUDD 2 (4th) had .93 back fat. I simply missed the fact that one had .02 more than the other -- who would have known?? heheh

Any way -- the new Simmi influenced steers placing 1 and 2 were very different then, BIG was an understatement -- I was amazed at those two steers. We had heard of the stir in others places and when we left to go there all we talked about was placement of the classes being decided by frame size first, then quality! I personally felt it was WRONG then, and still do today. There is one hell of alot more to quality than just size. By the way -- the 1-2 steers were in my opinion GREEN as hell, I don't think they even made the grade of Standard (Today's Select), but they for sure were yield grade 1's all the way! Heard they had less than .20 back fat, but they were BIG huh????

Enough for history -- hope all had a great Holliday -- and whether it is still politicly correct or not -- I want to be the FIRST to wish EVERY ONE a .....>>>>>>>>>>>>     MERRY CHRISTMAS ,

I don't do the Happy Holidays thing -- just doesn't seem right !

Smile every one --- Terry
 

OH Breeder

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CAB said:
DL, just curious, what makes you think that you & JIT are the seniors of this group? Is it about how immature or mature that we all act sometimes or is it a more defined # sort of thing? Maybe we should have a guess how young you think we are contest. LOL.
Good topic. Guess the posters age.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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I guess cowboy and me are out on this one because we've already showed our hands. Cowboy I'm a little younger than you, but I have adopted the " older the violin, the sweeter the music" motto. If I had of known I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself during my mispent youth. 10 years ago I was also ten foot tall and bullet proof - now I'm 5'10" and full of holes!
 

DL

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CAB said:
DL, just curious, what makes you think that you & JIT are the seniors of this group? Is it about how immature or mature that we all act sometimes or is it a more defined # sort of thing? Maybe we should have a guess how young you think we are contest. LOL.


CAB - I believe it became an established fact some time ago under some obscure post - which could have been called "Remnant from the 60'" (although that could have been the iPOD thread) - I can't exactly remember but I believe I top JIT by a couple of months - Cowboy is in our decade, ELBEE, RW and red I think are a decade back.....that is all I remember (PS we are talking actual years not level of maturity  ;D)

Merry Christmas to you Terry! (everyone else too)
 
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