Can we design cows that are too low to the ground?

[knabe]

Mothers tickle/lick the back to stimulate a response

Sort of like a nested Russian box

 

[aandtcattle]

First off, let me say that I am not trying to. start an arguement on here, but hopefully we can see some good discussion on something I have been thinking about for the past few days

I had two cows calve in the last few days and I saw the same thing happen in both cases. These cows are not small framed, but they are both pretty low set to the ground. Lots of my visitors pick them out and seem to like them. Both of these cows would weigh 1500 lbs on an average day. They are tremendously deep, roomy cows and as one Scottish visitor commented" they are Kenworths on a Volswagon frame." They stay in great condition and only get hay and pasture to live on ( other than salt and mineral). Both these cows calved unassisted and their calves were up and looking to nurse in minutes after birth. They are not monster size as one was a bull calf weighing 82 lb and a heifer calf weighing 88 lbs. I should also mention that both these cows have very good udders. They are well attached with proper teat placement and teat size.
The first cow calved at 11 PM and my wife asked me if I was going to help the calf nurse before we went back to the house. I said," the calf is looking and I'm sure it will find the teat on it's own" Like it was really vigorously looking to nurse and I expected it was off to the races. When I went back to the barn in the morning, it was obvious the calf had not sucked yet. It was still looking and was sucking the side of the dam's flank. I was really wishing I had taken the time to help it when it was born as I like these babies to get colostrum ingested in 1-2 hours.

The second cow calved yesterday morning. She is the heaviest of the two cows and also is probably built a bit lower to the ground of the two cows. She calved in a few short minutes from when she started and like the first cow, her calf was standing and actually trying to hop around the pen shortly after birth. I did some chores around the barn and went back to see how it was doing a few times, and I could see this heifer calf was looking for breakfast. I decided to just leave them alone for awhile, and I would put feed out for the rest of the cows. When I came back it was almost two hours after birth, and this calf was doing the same thing the first calf had done... it was sucking in the dam's flank area. These Shorthortn cows are both very docile, so all I had to do was bend over and tip the teat and put the calf's head down to where the teat was. Both calves were off to the races. That wasn't real hard, but I did think that it would have been a different story with a few other cows. 
This afternoon I drove by a large comjmercial herd of probably 400-500 black cows out grazing pastures.  As I looked at them, I thought about on the two calves I had born and the nurisng issue I had with them. In my case it was a problem easily solved as I only had to bend over and help the baby find the teat. I wondered what would happen if this was in a large herd calving on grass? Seems to me that might be a real issue if all the cows were built like the two cows i just calved. It also seems to me that these deep low set females are becoming the high sellers and show winners. Is there a bigger problem coming down the road? I don't know. Just askin'

I didnt take the time to read ALL of the responses in this thread but I would have to say no, it is not a problem.  I remember when I was a kid my grandpa had tiny little angus cows, 800-900 pounders, very low to the ground, so much so that gramps called em "cob rollers".  Their udders were neat and tidy but still were very near the ground as their legs were very short.  When I was about 6 or 7 years old, about 1985, gramps started to breed these little black cows to imported gelbvieh bulls, the good old red and horned gelbviehs.  I remember being out in the pasture with him watching the first gelbvieh calf be born.  The cow was standing up straining and the calf's nose was on the ground before it was all the way out of the cow, and thats no exaggeration!  To the best of my recollection, we never had to mess with any of those calves to help them suck, which was a good thing because those little "cob roller" cows would kill coyotes and probably wouldve done the same to a man!  (lol) <beer>

 

[RyanChandler]

  I had to help each of them to open their mouth and suck although the would lick the flank and even the teats!  Now the first of these heifers has calved, and I had to open the mouth of her calf to get her to fiind the teat again

There's your sign. 

 

[cpubarn]

  I had to help each of them to open their mouth and suck although the would lick the flank and even the teats!  Now the first of these heifers has calved, and I had to open the mouth of her calf to get her to fiind the teat again

There's your sign.   

Yea I got it and the sign says.... FOR SALE!

 

[Grousepark]

Survival of the fittest.  Only as strong as the weakest link (limiting factor);  Balanced traits that prosper with the current environment.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

In my small herd I have not had this problem.  I have tall cows and belly draggers like the girl in my avitar.  She is MAYBE a 5 frame and all of her calves got up and found the tit right away.  No problem at all.  And yes a few years ago her udder was dragging in the mud... granted my belly was dragging in the mud that year also.   

 

[aandtcattle]

In my small herd I have not had this problem.  I have tall cows and belly draggers like the girl in my avitar.  She is MAYBE a 5 frame and all of her calves got up and found the tit right away.  No problem at all.  And yes a few years ago her udder was dragging in the mud... granted my belly was dragging in the mud that year also.    

You kill me dude!  (lol) <beer>

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

In my small herd I have not had this problem.  I have tall cows and belly draggers like the girl in my avitar.  She is MAYBE a 5 frame and all of her calves got up and found the tit right away.  No problem at all.  And yes a few years ago her udder was dragging in the mud... granted my belly was dragging in the mud that year also.    

You kill me dude!  (lol) <beer>

Ok so I might have been exaggerating just a little bit about my belly, but not hers.

 

[andy]

Nature doesn't care much for extremes.  Extremely tall, short, or deep.  The showring, on the other hand, only rewards extremes.  Hmm, could there be a co-relation here somewhere?  I think the other part of the puzzle is that those commercial cows that Grant is talking about are usually crossbred.  The biggest difference I see in my own cattle between the purebreds and the commercials is the survivabilty of newborn calves.  Those Xbreds are just that more aggresive and smarter.

 

[LDT]

I think some are thinking " low to the ground" and " frame score" are the same thing.In many cases they may be, but in the two cows I brought into my initial remarks, these cows are not what I call small framed. The second cow that calves is a tank and I would guesstimate her to be a 5.8-6 frame. I will try to do a measurement to find out for sure, but she is so deep sided that it is a bit decieving. I also think I underestimated her weight as she is probably a 1600 lb cow and may even hit 1700 when she is in good rig. I know I had a bull in a pen beside her who weighed 1600 lbs last fall, and he looked small compared to this girl. She is just a real ground sow. It is possible that both of my calves would have eventually found the teats but I wonder how many calves would die in range conditions that took more than 3-4 hours to nurse their mothers?  I have always been told that the calf's gut is designed to absorb the immunity provided by the colostrum, but it starts to close off to this being allowed after 1 hour and  this special ability to absorb these immunines is pretty much done by about 6 hours of life. That is why you usually hear that it is best for the calf to get colostrum in the first one or two hours of life. I know the first one of my calves mentioned was over 8 hours before he got colostrum, and may have even gone longer if I didn't help it. The second one was just a couple hours but I helped it also. Like both these calves were very active and really hunting for the teats. They just didn't figure it out, and the teats are excellent size and shape.
The answer to the questions as posed is and emphatic YES

 

[LDT]

Yes we can make cattle useless in a lot of ways.  We can make cows so low to the ground that their calves struggle to nurse.  We can make them sotall and hard doing that we connot get enough feed into them.  we must pay attention to keeping cattle practical in the environment around them.  Many have gone the way of the dodo bird.  Some carry the name but bear no resemblance to the original stock that arrived on the scene. 

A less than diplomatic but staunch Angus promoter once told me that the Angus cow was the best most resilient animal in the world........in spite of the breeders.....