I know this may sound like the most moronic question but here it goes. Can anyone tell me if there are any club calf sires that are known to give good carcass qualities also? I am an ag teacher in Idaho and raise some cattle. I want to breed some of them to get some fair steers for my own kids and for my FFA students. I have a couple hangups however. I market all my extra calves to a local feedlot that gets carcass data back on every animal and they are traced back to the owner. We also have a carcass contest at our county fair in which people from the community can go in and see the carcasses. With all this in mind, I want to provide calves to do well at the show and not be embarrassing on the rail, either at the carcass contest or from the feedlot. I don't need to win both, but I have seen club calves win Grand and then turn around and grade low select or even standard with 11-12" ribeyes. I also have students who are looking to AI and have the same concerns. Any help will be great!
Carcass Quality?
- Thread starter idahoag
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HAB
Well-known member
Eye Candy
I think Trausches blogged that some Naughty Pine steers had done well in a carcass contest. You throw in the 1/4 Galloway on your calves, and you should do well both on the hoof and the rail.
I think Trausches blogged that some Naughty Pine steers had done well in a carcass contest. You throw in the 1/4 Galloway on your calves, and you should do well both on the hoof and the rail.
CAB
Well-known member
Heat Seeker & many of the SH influenced bulls will have good carcasses.
LostFarmer
Well-known member
There is a new bull called Insanity. He is a Sun Seeker out of a Kryptonite out of a Windsor cow. Kryptonite is a Whiplash. There looks to be plenty of grow in the pedigree. I am thinking he should work on angus based cows. We will see in a year as I will be putting some in this spring.
Where are you at Idahoag? I am in Teton County.
Where are you at Idahoag? I am in Teton County.
debtramm
Well-known member
Gigiloe Joe
It has to start with your cows, if there good British based cows it should not be a problem.
Full Flush: We fed a Flush / Angus steer that was 3rd in his class (the grand and reserve came out of the same class) when the carcass was delivered to the local custom butcher it was graded USDA Prime (one of the few they ever got back from the state plant that graded that way) He was a easy feeder put it on the right way. There are still some good flush sons out there, There used to be a Smoke bull out of Flush that had that had a cool look to him that might work.
Unforgiven: We fed 1 and 2 others that I have been around would flat out eat and convert feed, I would use him on cows that need to add some size, these calves all packed on the pounds and finished early and big.
Full Flush: We fed a Flush / Angus steer that was 3rd in his class (the grand and reserve came out of the same class) when the carcass was delivered to the local custom butcher it was graded USDA Prime (one of the few they ever got back from the state plant that graded that way) He was a easy feeder put it on the right way. There are still some good flush sons out there, There used to be a Smoke bull out of Flush that had that had a cool look to him that might work.
Unforgiven: We fed 1 and 2 others that I have been around would flat out eat and convert feed, I would use him on cows that need to add some size, these calves all packed on the pounds and finished early and big.
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I have yet to see any real data from anyone ever to prove me wrong. There is nothing wrong with the carcass quality of "show steers".
Data Set No. 1 - Our Own Herd. We send about 1.5 truckloads to feedlots every year. We get carcass data back on our calves when they are killed. Almost every calf in the group is out of a Maine or Simi cross cow and either AI steer sires (Heat Wave or his sons plus a several other bloodlines over the years) or one of our cleanup bulls that are typically half-blood Maine or Simi bulls (for example Lifeline sons, Strictly Business sons, Meyer sons, etc).
2006 65 steers, 10 heifers - 71.8% Choice or Prime, 56.2% YG 1 or 2, RE 12.88 (Power Genetics, NE)
2007 63 steers, 27 heifers - 77.2% Choice or Prime, 65.9% YG 1 or 2, RE 12.89 (Power Genetics, NE
2008 63 steers, 19 heifers - 75.1% Choice or Prime, 45% YG 1 or 2, RE 13.78 (Power Genetics, NE
2009 65 steers, 26 heifers - 65.9% Choice or Prime, 66% YG 1 or 2, RE 14.31 (Power Genetics, NE)
2010 No Data (Power Genetics, NE)
2011 78 steers, 47 heifers - 88% Choice or Prime, 40% Yg 1 or 2, 47% YG 3, No Ribeye Data (Premium Natural Beef)
Ribeye numbers are true averages and influenced by the heifers in the mixed loads. Actual numbers on steers (which I have, but too much trouble to pull out and put on here), were generally 15 or better - much better out of the AI sires on average.
The biggest source of variation is always the end target the feedlot is shooting for, not the cattle themselves.
Data Set No. 1 - Our Own Herd. We send about 1.5 truckloads to feedlots every year. We get carcass data back on our calves when they are killed. Almost every calf in the group is out of a Maine or Simi cross cow and either AI steer sires (Heat Wave or his sons plus a several other bloodlines over the years) or one of our cleanup bulls that are typically half-blood Maine or Simi bulls (for example Lifeline sons, Strictly Business sons, Meyer sons, etc).
2006 65 steers, 10 heifers - 71.8% Choice or Prime, 56.2% YG 1 or 2, RE 12.88 (Power Genetics, NE)
2007 63 steers, 27 heifers - 77.2% Choice or Prime, 65.9% YG 1 or 2, RE 12.89 (Power Genetics, NE
2008 63 steers, 19 heifers - 75.1% Choice or Prime, 45% YG 1 or 2, RE 13.78 (Power Genetics, NE
2009 65 steers, 26 heifers - 65.9% Choice or Prime, 66% YG 1 or 2, RE 14.31 (Power Genetics, NE)
2010 No Data (Power Genetics, NE)
2011 78 steers, 47 heifers - 88% Choice or Prime, 40% Yg 1 or 2, 47% YG 3, No Ribeye Data (Premium Natural Beef)
Ribeye numbers are true averages and influenced by the heifers in the mixed loads. Actual numbers on steers (which I have, but too much trouble to pull out and put on here), were generally 15 or better - much better out of the AI sires on average.
The biggest source of variation is always the end target the feedlot is shooting for, not the cattle themselves.
My cow are mostly (3/4) angus with some coming three year olds that are full angus. Most of my cows are in the 1350 lb. range but are not real deep cows for the most part, but have pretty good height and length. My daughter has taken two steers to the fair that were out of regular angus bulls and they both graded choice, in fact, last years calf was a choice +. The problem was they were towards the bottom end of their classes. I appreciate all the replies...keep them coming please. I am trying to educate myself with your help.
Data Set No. 2 - look at carcass contest data from Texas majors (San Antonio and Houston). These are the best of the best and it would probably be shocking to know how many of these steers are from Heat Wave or his sons (regardless of the breed they are shown in).
http://www.sarodeo.com/data/files/1075/2012_sale_steer_carcass.pdf
http://meat.tamu.edu/HLSR/2011%20HLSR/2011%20HLSR%20Steers.pdf
http://meat.tamu.edu/HLSR/2011%20HLSR/results.htm
When you see a "show steer" that really does have a truly poor carcass, it is almost always a resulting of improper feeding/managment on the part of the owner, not the calf's "carcass" genetics. If it's not that, it's one that had gotten sick along the way somewhere, crippled, etc. The only true issue for a commercial cattleman with these kind of cattle is they don't grow as fast as more popular commercial bloodlines and don't get as big, but that is often a result of how they are fed as much as anything. Our feedlot calves (same genetics) gain faster than the ones we feed for show steers - on purpose.
http://www.sarodeo.com/data/files/1075/2012_sale_steer_carcass.pdf
http://meat.tamu.edu/HLSR/2011%20HLSR/2011%20HLSR%20Steers.pdf
http://meat.tamu.edu/HLSR/2011%20HLSR/results.htm
When you see a "show steer" that really does have a truly poor carcass, it is almost always a resulting of improper feeding/managment on the part of the owner, not the calf's "carcass" genetics. If it's not that, it's one that had gotten sick along the way somewhere, crippled, etc. The only true issue for a commercial cattleman with these kind of cattle is they don't grow as fast as more popular commercial bloodlines and don't get as big, but that is often a result of how they are fed as much as anything. Our feedlot calves (same genetics) gain faster than the ones we feed for show steers - on purpose.
Chambero, I always wondered if the cases where the Champion does not grade out well, wasn't from a calf being held way to long, shrunk down to hit a certain weight class just prior to the show. I think that they would lose some of the internal fat as well as external fat when you have to hold a steer for over a month or more. No matter how many supplements they received.
I know that we fed, HW's, as well as an O"Malay, Invincible, Unforgiven, Friction, Full Flush, to name a few and they all did real well on the hook. But we fed them with the end product in mind.
I will say some times some of the HW were a little harder to get there sometimes but then other HW were pigs, so go figure.
I know that we fed, HW's, as well as an O"Malay, Invincible, Unforgiven, Friction, Full Flush, to name a few and they all did real well on the hook. But we fed them with the end product in mind.
I will say some times some of the HW were a little harder to get there sometimes but then other HW were pigs, so go figure.
LostFarmer
Well-known member
We showed a Carnac heifer that finished at 1,110 lbs, Prime, 13.8 rib eye, and a yield grade 3. She was also done at 14 months. We had to push her hard to the end as the show had a 1,050 weight limit. Made it but it was close. So club calves can yield and grade but they can also be hard feeding poor converting calves.
Chambero- Thanks for the great data! This puts my mind at ease a bit. It makes sense on the feeding and having a goal in mind for finishing them. Especially since my students don't hit the jackpots like they do in other areas. So Heat Wave and sons? What are some of his sons that you have had good luck with?
I wouldn't recommend Heat Wave himself to anyone that isn't a real serious club calf producer. Not due to birth weight, but his bull calves can be real lazy without much get up and go for the first week or two. If you aren't on top of it, you can lose some due to it.
If your cows are pretty big (1300 lbs + mature size):
I'm a big fan of Monopoly and wouldn't hesitate to use his clones if semen price were an issue for you or your students.
I do like Walks Alone, but his calves have been smaller in final size for us at the end than the Monopoly calves. If you can get a big one look out though. Super stout.
Other bulls that have worked for me: Smooth Sailing, My Turn (better heifers than steers).
If your cows are smaller:
It depends on where your judges come from for your county shows. If Herefords or black baldies are pretty well received, I wouldn't hesitate to use some of the Hereford-X bulls out there like Red Rock, Carpe Diem, Cottonmouth, etc. You will get more growth out of thoese calves than you will black clubby bulls.
Any of the clubby Charolais bulls are also good bets - if your judges like them.
If not, go with a high percentage Maine bull such as some of the Irish Whiskey sons - not calving ease Maine bulls. Examples are Paddy O'Malley, Dubai, Patton (actually not high % but good). There are a bunch of newer ones too. Those steers will work great for county shows.
If your cows are pretty big (1300 lbs + mature size):
I'm a big fan of Monopoly and wouldn't hesitate to use his clones if semen price were an issue for you or your students.
I do like Walks Alone, but his calves have been smaller in final size for us at the end than the Monopoly calves. If you can get a big one look out though. Super stout.
Other bulls that have worked for me: Smooth Sailing, My Turn (better heifers than steers).
If your cows are smaller:
It depends on where your judges come from for your county shows. If Herefords or black baldies are pretty well received, I wouldn't hesitate to use some of the Hereford-X bulls out there like Red Rock, Carpe Diem, Cottonmouth, etc. You will get more growth out of thoese calves than you will black clubby bulls.
Any of the clubby Charolais bulls are also good bets - if your judges like them.
If not, go with a high percentage Maine bull such as some of the Irish Whiskey sons - not calving ease Maine bulls. Examples are Paddy O'Malley, Dubai, Patton (actually not high % but good). There are a bunch of newer ones too. Those steers will work great for county shows.
LostFarmer said:
You do get some that won't get big enough now (frame and weight). That's the trick in picking them nowadays. That was my biggest problem last year on the calves we kept in the barn. Did fine at our shows, but 2 of 4 never hit 1150 let alone the 1350 I shoot for.
LostFarmer
Well-known member
I would second your good maine bull response. I am using an IW son out of Whiplash's mother. He is flat out working on my cows. Doubt I get any big winners but I have several that are good enough for most Idaho county fairs. Hair is okay but stout, square, and clean fronted. Only complaint is he is about 80% bulls and I want heifers.
LostFarmer
Well-known member
chambero said:
With these cows being 3/4 or more Angus would you still use Monopoly?
There's plenty of Monopoly x Angus steers that are getting sold down here. A little Heat Wave rear goes a long way!
You still have to have the muscle, but judges at our majors down here are putting a lot more emphasis on completeness and balance than pure width. Steers have to show muscle and depth from the profile more so than the rear view.
For even county level shows here, a good Monopoly x Angus steer will have plenty of horsepower. I think that combo is a particularly safer bet for someone wanting to step into the water slowly for breeding show steers.
In my opinion, a "great one" is always an accident. Nobody -even those with $20K cows - is going to breed a truly great one every year. That's why so many people have flipped to trading instead of breeding. You can go two ways - you can breed everything to have lots of super stout calves and hope you get one that is sound enough. Or you can back off on the sheer muscle and raise a bunch of nice middle-of-the-road calves muscle wise and hope you get one that's exceptionally stout. I go for the latter approach. Those nice made middle-of-the-road babies grow into much higher placing steers than the babies that are freaks muscle wise but tend to cripple up with weight.
There's is no more valuable animal on the face of the earth in my opinion than a good middle-of-the-road Angus cow with some muscle. Any bull of any breed worth anything will work on that kind of cow.
You still have to have the muscle, but judges at our majors down here are putting a lot more emphasis on completeness and balance than pure width. Steers have to show muscle and depth from the profile more so than the rear view.
For even county level shows here, a good Monopoly x Angus steer will have plenty of horsepower. I think that combo is a particularly safer bet for someone wanting to step into the water slowly for breeding show steers.
In my opinion, a "great one" is always an accident. Nobody -even those with $20K cows - is going to breed a truly great one every year. That's why so many people have flipped to trading instead of breeding. You can go two ways - you can breed everything to have lots of super stout calves and hope you get one that is sound enough. Or you can back off on the sheer muscle and raise a bunch of nice middle-of-the-road calves muscle wise and hope you get one that's exceptionally stout. I go for the latter approach. Those nice made middle-of-the-road babies grow into much higher placing steers than the babies that are freaks muscle wise but tend to cripple up with weight.
There's is no more valuable animal on the face of the earth in my opinion than a good middle-of-the-road Angus cow with some muscle. Any bull of any breed worth anything will work on that kind of cow.
LostFarmer
Well-known member
(clapping) (clapping)
I almost completely agree with you. My only exception is a good angus/hereford cow. Tough to go wrong with a tried and true black baldie mother cow. They just flat work. In my world if a cow can't be bred for a heifer to make a replacement or bred to clubby bull and make a club calf then she isn't a good cow.
The think I have to remember is once I use that unit of clubby semen that calf will leave the place. I have no room in my program for a heifer out of that stuff. Yes there are good ones but they are rare. A good friend who has been doing this for awhile said, "Heatwave will strip the milk out of a holstein." There is a cross I might need to try. HW on my milk cow. hmmmm (That is said completely in jest! I would soon be accused of being Jody for such a comment!)
I almost completely agree with you. My only exception is a good angus/hereford cow. Tough to go wrong with a tried and true black baldie mother cow. They just flat work. In my world if a cow can't be bred for a heifer to make a replacement or bred to clubby bull and make a club calf then she isn't a good cow.
The think I have to remember is once I use that unit of clubby semen that calf will leave the place. I have no room in my program for a heifer out of that stuff. Yes there are good ones but they are rare. A good friend who has been doing this for awhile said, "Heatwave will strip the milk out of a holstein." There is a cross I might need to try. HW on my milk cow. hmmmm (That is said completely in jest! I would soon be accused of being Jody for such a comment!)
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