Carrier bulls used on commercial cattle

[idahoag]

We are discussing genetics and TH/PHA carriers in class.  We understand the possibilities and students have used the punnet square to look at probability.  The question is if we use a carrier bull on our commercial heard (angus cross, hereford crosses and purebred angus) is there reason to be worried as long as all calves are terminal?  Thank you!

 

[RankeCattleCo]

As far as TH, no.  PHA... I would be more concerned about then TH but still not concerned.  Plus, If I've got a good female with TH, I would keep her, but with PHA, I would be more hesitant to do so.  Now I'm just making assumptions, but since it sounds like you're an ag teacher, I'm assuming you don't have pastures upon pastures filled with cows.  Just think of the effects of not retaining any females for one year.. I's still breed some of your PB Angus, If not all of them, to either A) A PB Angus bull  B) A PB or High % Simmi or Maine bull.  Just my two cents.

RCC

 

[DakotaCow]

Provided the cows are clean you can use carrier bulls without worry or harm.

 

[cornish]

theoritically, you shouldn't have a problem... But keep in mind that TH was formed with a bull born in the 70s- Deerpark Improver, and TH didn't really surface until the mid 2000s.  PHA I believe stemmed from a bull called Paramount- who ironically was also born in the 70s.. and didn't appear until a few years after TH did.  Although, I'm not sure where Stinger got his juice from, as I don't think he goes back to Paramount???  Maybe someone with more knowledge of Maines will chime in.

It will depend on what makes up the 'cross' in your Angus and Hereford crosses-- if it's shorthorn or Maine-- then you could have a worry.  There are 30 years worth of unknown pedigreed cattle out there-- each with a slim to none chance of having these hidden defects-- however-- they have the exact same odds as those who are confirmed carriers due to the recessive nature of the genes breeding on ability...

Most likely-- you shouldn't have a problem.

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

Here's a random thought that I came up with while staring at the raining day on a Friday afternoon...

How many of the club calf sires do you think have a bit of Angus in them and are carriers of AM, NH or CA? 

Just thought... We always think to test our clubbies for TH and PHA but not the Angus based ones.

 

[DL]

We are discussing genetics and TH/PHA carriers in class.  We understand the possibilities and students have used the punnet square to look at probability.  The question is if we use a carrier bull on our commercial heard (angus cross, hereford crosses and purebred angus) is there reason to be worried as long as all calves are terminal?  Thank you!

Theoretically speaking NO but theoretically where will you get your replacements? If you keep back replacements for whatever reason (look how expensive they are now, there is a nice group etc) and if you buy replacements how do you know what they are? Is that black heifer really Angus or does she have a touch of Maine or Chi?) theoretically yes it could be an issue

Not theoretically what would a carrier have to offer that a good decent clean bull doesn't?  Most commercial people I know are not keen on the big hair deal can't walk deal

There have been cases of dead deformed calves in commercial herds from a variety of breeds due to recognized lethal genetic defects -TH, AM, NH etc

And BTW if you did the Punnet Square you should have been able to answer your own question since neither purebred Hereford and Angus or their crosses should be carriers of either TH or PHA

KSU my suspicion is that not many black clubbies are carriers of AM or NH or CA - the founders and offspring of those defects were antithetical to the clubbie bull

 

[sue]

Here's a random thought that I came up with while staring at the raining day on a Friday afternoon...

How many of the club calf sires do you think have a bit of Angus in them and are carriers of AM, NH or CA? 

Just thought... We always think to test our clubbies for TH and PHA but not the Angus based ones.

How many shorthorns have black influence?  Should we just test for everything?

 

[CAB]

We are discussing genetics and TH/PHA carriers in class.  We understand the possibilities and students have used the punnet square to look at probability.  The question is if we use a carrier bull on our commercial heard (angus cross, hereford crosses and purebred angus) is there reason to be worried as long as all calves are terminal?  Thank you!

Really the short simple answer to your question is NO. There is NO chance of a positive calf,(AKA.DEAD calf), using carrier bulls on clean commercial cows. If you sell all of the calves you have NO chance of keeping a carrier female in your herd. If you sell heifers or bulls @ the sale barn you should warn perspective buyers that they 50% of the calves in theory would be carriers.

 

[cornish]

We are discussing genetics and TH/PHA carriers in class.  We understand the possibilities and students have used the punnet square to look at probability.  The question is if we use a carrier bull on our commercial heard (angus cross, hereford crosses and purebred angus) is there reason to be worried as long as all calves are terminal?  Thank you!

Really the short simple answer to your question is NO. There is NO chance of a positive calf,(AKA.DEAD calf), using carrier bulls on clean commercial cows. If you sell all of the calves you have NO chance of keeping a carrier female in your herd. If you sell heifers or bulls @ the sale barn you should warn perspective buyers that they 50% of the calves in theory would be carriers.

I don't know how you can make a statement like that- for the reasons I mentioned above. If they know nothing about the pedigrees- and they have either Maine or Shorthorn influnce in those cows- whether known or not known...  They have a chance of having the defect.  I have seen very few herds, classifided as "Angus crosses"-- that were not a jumbled, up, mixed bag of treasures from every breed of cow under the sun-- and sired by an Angus bull...

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

DL, I agree.  And when we think about how many matings there have been since the Angus cow was bred to the Simmi bull then the heifer calf was bred to a Maine bull, etc etc, I think that while there might be slight the chance, the probability of it is low enough it really isn't a concern.  Especially when like you said, most of those carriers of AM, NH and CA weren't what we were looking for in the clubby world.

Sue, I see it as the same way in most senses.  While yes, there was black influence in a LOT of our Shorthorns, a lot of it came before the NH mutation came about.  I am not sure I can say the same for the other too but breeding one up since then from a Shorthorn x Angus cross animal, the probability that they are carriers of any of these is so low it is probably not a risk.

Just my two sense, thought it kind of applied to the topic.

Idaho, I've been thinking a lot about your question.  I'm the kind of person that if you don't know the full genetic background of your females, don't take the chance, test them or use clean bulls.  To me it's not worth the slim chance you're best cow will be a PHA carrier and have an affected calf, losing her and the calf....

 

[justintime]

I agree that if you use carrier bulls on commercial females that are not from carrier genetics, there is no chance to be worried about the calves having defect issues and as long as all the calves are terminal, there should be no issues into the future... but ( and this is a very big but) the only true way to know if these calves are terminal is to finish them yourself and take them to the packing plant.  I have seen so many people who consider taking their calves to the auction mart as being terminal. Just a few days ago, a neighbour told me he had 4 TH defect calves last spring and he thought he had only used his TH carrier herd sire on cows that he thought were clean. He has used 2 carrier bulls and and a few more by AI as he plays with clubbys. He now has over 40 daughters of his two TH carrier bulls in his herd and he has not tested any. He said he is going to have to be very careful what he uses. He also said that he purchased a set of females from a replacement female sale at a local auction mart, and that some of them must have been carriers as well, as some of his TH calves last spring were from these females. That is exactly what I worry about, that is, just how carrier animals are disposed of, when the breeder sells them. Just taking them to an auction market is NOT the answer. Selling them to a feedlot may NOT be the answer either. I know of cases where feedlots have resold good sets of heifers for breeding stock.
Two years ago, I took 2 yearling bulls that had not passed a semen test to the auction mart and I wrote clearly on the manifest that they were " not for breeding purposes". Last fall I had a guy phone me and he asked me if he could get the registration papers for the bull he bought from me. I could not remember this guy ever buying a bull from me. Finally I asked him where he had bought the bull? His reply was that he had bought him in the auction mart. He said that he had some excellent calves from him and her wanted to get the registrations papers for the bull. This just proves to me, that taking animals to a local sale barn is not any guarantee that your carrier calves have been properly kept out of the industry. That is one of my main concerns about using carrier bulls.

 

[knabe]

]
How many shorthorns have black influence?  Should we just test for everything?

They are both simply selections perhaps from the same pool that somehow got to England.

Would like to see that study genetically.

 

[Limiman12]

Here's a random thought that I came up with while staring at the raining day on a Friday afternoon...

How many of the club calf sires do you think have a bit of Angus in them and are carriers of AM, NH or CA? 

Just thought... We always think to test our clubbies for TH and PHA but not the Angus based ones.

How many shorthorns have black influence?  Should we just test for everything?

IMO.  Heavily promoted bulls.  YES.  Everything they are not ABSOLUTLY cleared by parentage.   Angus is was the breed of choice to turn composites black Ina great many instances.   If a heavily used promotional bull were to happen to carry something we have a test for, but wasn't tested for it cause he was four generations removed form angus or whatever breed that could turn into a mess.

As mentioned,  but I would say more then a few commercial "angus" herds are 50% angus out of an angus bull but the mommas were multiple generations of breeding.   for instance.......

If you asked me, I would tell you that we have a commercial limousin herd.  Most of the cows are three fourths or seven eights limi,  but that other quarter or eighth....  Well, we had a Maine bull in the nineties for a while that we kept a lot of cows out of, before that we always had  angus bull around we even had a char bull a couple different times and way back when my dad was in 4h and ffa they ran a few pb shorthorn cows and bulls as late as when my youngest aunt was in highschool in the late seventies and we have from time to time in the past twenty years had a composite bull that we used mostly as terminal, but probably kept a few heifers out of.    I doubt we are out of the ordinary for a commercial herd that is now starting its fifth generation of being passed down in the form of a heifer from the herd that is raised and kept in the herd.    

In labs, testing for everything gives educated buyers piece of mind they are willing to pay for,   And that is talking about the high end pups costing fifteen hundred or two grand.   If a promo bull had the goods and was not just double clean, but everything known clean it would give guys like me a bit more piece of mind breeding to our mixed up cows.   I know one local popular bull sale advertises that the composite bulls are free of all known genetic defects.   That is a sale for the commercial cattlemen in the large area......

 

[aj]

The way I look at it the commercial cattle are the beef industry. The club calf deal is a sidebar. I would like to keep the industry clean of these economically crippling genetic defects. It is insane to let this crap trickle down through the nations cowherds. Hopefully the cow killing crap that comes out of the club calf deal will be slowed down by their lack of survial traits but they will still get out there. The Angus association has banned defects so they are at least under controll.

 

[Cattle Cards]

Here's a random thought that I came up with while staring at the raining day on a Friday afternoon...

How many of the club calf sires do you think have a bit of Angus in them and are carriers of AM, NH or CA? 

Just thought... We always think to test our clubbies for TH and PHA but not the Angus based ones.

I have a clubby bred heifer that is currently being shown.  Getting ready to breed her in a month or two.  They just completed her genetic testing and I had her tested for TH, PHA, AM, NH & CA.  I also had the "Sire Trace" done incase I do E.T. later or breed her to a Simmental bull so that the calves can be registered without the headache of verifying the cow/donor.  It all cost me $117.  Now, if I had a large herd of cattle, I couldn't do all of that but since she is my only heifer and first in 25 years, it was worth it to me to have everything done as you said being that we don't know about her sire/s Maine, Angus or Shorthorn blood nor her commercial mother's SimAngus background.  Now I know and have everything on file.  When you have a few it's easy to do and helps with your breeding decisions.  I feel much better knowing.
<cowboy>

 

[JTM]

We are discussing genetics and TH/PHA carriers in class.  We understand the possibilities and students have used the punnet square to look at probability.  The question is if we use a carrier bull on our commercial heard (angus cross, hereford crosses and purebred angus) is there reason to be worried as long as all calves are terminal?  Thank you!

I know this is a little off from your original question but I just wanted to bring up that there may be more to worry about in a "carrier bull" being bred to commercial cows than just the genetic defect. Popular TH/PHA carriers have not been bred to perform in the commercial environment and IMO you would be setting yourselves up for failure by considering those type of genetics.

 

[vc]

JTM, In an earlier post Idahoag had inquired about trying to get calves that are a little more competitive at the fairs, by breeding club calves to some of their commercial cows. They did want calves not used for show calves that would at least do okay in the feed lot.

Idahoag, there are quite a few nice club calf bulls out there that are clean, you might consider using a few of them, it would eliminate the chance of any problems.
There are few post on here today about calves out of some of the clean club calf bulls, I really like that Amen calf.

 

[RyanChandler]

We are discussing genetics and TH/PHA carriers in class.  We understand the possibilities and students have used the punnet square to look at probability.  The question is if we use a carrier bull on our commercial heard (angus cross, hereford crosses and purebred angus) is there reason to be worried as long as all calves are terminal?  Thank you!

I know this is a little off from your original question but I just wanted to bring up that there may be more to worry about in a "carrier bull" being bred to commercial cows than just the genetic defect. Popular TH/PHA carriers have not been bred to perform in the commercial environment and IMO you would be setting yourselves up for failure by considering those type of genetics.

That could be said of ALL the MODERN clubby type genetics, not just those that happen to go back to a TH/PHA carrier.    At the same type , Im sure many of those PHA carrier Fullblood maines are/would be about as good of a terminal sire as you could find-- back before clubby meant midget. 

 

[SeannyT]

theoritically, you shouldn't have a problem... But keep in mind that TH was formed with a bull born in the 70s- Deerpark Improver, and TH didn't really surface until the mid 2000s.  PHA I believe stemmed from a bull called Paramount- who ironically was also born in the 70s.. and didn't appear until a few years after TH did.  Although, I'm not sure where Stinger got his juice from, as I don't think he goes back to Paramount???  Maybe someone with more knowledge of Maines will chime in.

This may also be off topic, but could someone elaborate on this point. It was my understanding that TH as with most defects are caused by mutations, but I find it hard to believe that it was developed by Deerpark Improver. One would think that it had been around for hundreds of years; I could see TH occurrence showing up much more due to extensive use of a carrier, but it seems unlikely that the defect was only developed in the 70's.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the quote, but if not someone feel free to correct me.

 

[aj]

Improver was imported from Ireland. I know on the dwarfism deal in the Herfords was traced to St. Louis Lad born in 1890 something. The problem exploded in the 1950's when 2 popular lines started hooking up. Gardiners Angus bull is interesting cause as I understand it HE was the original mutation.