cattle nutrition

[KDSC]

OK we are trying to make a show calf ration but i was wondering if there was a website or a person that could help me out on a few things.

first some kind of list that has feed incredients and their protein, fat and...

second what kind(weight and frame) of calf does better on what protein level and fat levels??

)) )) )) )) )) )) )) )) )) ))

thanks a whole bunch to any one how can help me ))

 

[red]

Dan or AAOK has some really good information. PM him or e-mail him at [email protected]
Also from the front page is this website: http://www.steerplanet.com/content/view/16/
Check w/ your local feed company or feedstore too!
Never hurts to ask!!!!
Red

 

[KDSC]

I have been pm'ing Dan ;D and i am pretty sure he is sick of me asking so many questions ;D ;D

we only have one feedstore here and they only sell bagged feed, and dont really care about much, all of our feed mills have went out of bussiness :'(

and the article you posted, i was already reading on their website ;D thanks a lot red

 

[dutch pride]

I think this a good area for discussion but does not seem to get very much "public" response. I tried to start a discussion by listing our feed ingredients and asking for suggestions but got very little responce. Is feeding, what to feed, how to feed, etc. that big of a secret that everyone thinks they have a secret formula that works only for them? Or is it an area that we feel that we are not an expert enough on to give a responsible opinion? Don't want to open a can of worms just wondering??????

DLZ

 

[kanshow]

KDSC - I've got to go do some chores but will post a ration we had for last summer using Sunglo products. 

 

[shortyjock89]

I would give a response on feeding, but I don't want my advice to be the reason for some steer bloating up and dying or something horrible like that. Also, we didn't really have alot of help when we developed our feed and it really helped us understand the way that the different feedstuffs are utilized by the animal. 

I hope that my prior statement didn't sound too stingy, and I gladly help anyone along that asks me about our feed, say, when we're at a show, or when they come to look at calves.  When that happens, I feel that I can help out alot more, rather than talking about it online. I will try my best if anyone has a specific question, but I am no feed genius..alot of our past rations were calf-specific, and we are always trying to make our feed better.

 

[red]

for me, I use a bagged feed. I found over the years that when you start adding products to a program you run the risk of throwing the entire ration off track. I use a good mineral, grassy hay & make sure they have plenty of clean water. Too me those are the most important ingredients to a good nutritional program. I try to watch their weight so that my heifers don't get fat deposits on their tail head area & other areas. I'll switch to a grower or developer depending on their age & availability.

Red

 

[KDSC]

Yes we also feed a bag feed but it is about 10 bucks a bad with freight, and that is getting a little pricy

 

[shortyjock89]

I'm not sure how the feed prices are around you, but there are some feeds that are about $13/bag here.  Our mix that we feed is about $10/bag and we haven't been able to find any cheaper feed without sacrificing quality.

 

[CPL]

Dan or AAOK has some really good information. PM him or e-mail him at [email protected]
Also from the front page is this website: http://www.steerplanet.com/content/view/16/
Check w/ your local feed company or feedstore too!
Never hurts to ask!!!!
Red

Red- I think Dan's ration is top notch. Its definitly worth looking into.

 

[showsteerdlux]

The feed that we fed last year is made by Godfreys in Ga. that may be a ways for y'all to go but last time we got it delivered to NC it was about 290/ton. The fat was 3% and fiber was about 9%. It was a pretty complete feed. If you have the option I would look at Umbargers. This is absolutely the best feed I have used and seen. In the past five years Umbargers has fed over half of the champions at our State Fair for both steers and heifers. I prefer the Cattle Blaster but have also used Barley Base and Breeder Grower and have had success with both.

 

[CAB]

KDSC, as you can tell just by the few responses that you have gotten on this question here that there are sooo many different ideas about what to feed your cattle and what works best, but I will add my 2 cents worth. First of all, to answer your question about frame. Frame score will be decided IMO by genetics primarily, so forget about balancing your ration for anything to do with frame. Different sizes and ages require different protein levels. Rule of thumb, the younger & smaller the calf, the higher the protein level. Generalization 18% starter rations down to 12% for finisher rations. The bigger the calf, the more that they can eat which causes lower percentages of protein eaten per lb, but more total lbs eaten per day. Follow?
  Another reason that you don't get a lot of responses to this question is that no one knows where you live and what kind of economical feasible feedstuffs that you have to work with in your area. That makes it almost impossible to help you, until you give us the products to work with, thus this is why most people go to town and buy what they have or tell you to buy. If you want to get good @ making your own rations, you need to buy a book which includes most of the feed stuffs and their digestable nutrients for beef listed. Now if you stop a second to think about that it can be a bit mind boggling. I am from Iowa State area, and am old, so the book I recommend is Feeds & Feeding by Dr. Jurgens. I don't know what the latest edition will be, but you will be amazed at what you can feed cattle. So, for us to help you, you will first need to decide what products that you have in your area to use and what % protein that you want the ration to end up @. I will need to go start trying to find my old feeds & feeding book so that I may be able to solve for X. The formula that we used to use was called the Pearson square, and was really simple to use assuming that you aced algebra in high school. Just kidding about acing the class, but see you can use it in the real world. Hey, if one of you younger pups out in the syber world wants to jump in about now, feel free then I won't bother to go try to find my old book. It's been between 2 & 3 decades buried somewhere. I will go look KDSC, if no one else can help us here. I honestly think that the simpler that you keep the ration the better off you'll be. There are some great rations out there, and some people have very strong ideas about what you should feed, but really there are no big secrets. Feed your calf cattle feedstuffs. You can deffinantly fine tune feeds as you go, but don't make it anymore complicated than it has to be. I'm sure that Dan's ration works very well and if the ingredients to make his ration are available to you, that may be the best place to start. Here in Iowa right now for our calf projects all weighing in the 600s, we are feeding a mix of cracked corn, dry gluten,( most we have ever fed b/c of corn prices),soybean hulls, cottonseed hulls, and shredded dried beet pulp, no hay to speak of. We have 10 head in the pen and they are eating approx. 16lb/hd/day. We will slowly increase this or keep it to what they will clean up in about 20 minutes twice/day.  Again, IF YOU WANT TO GET GOOD AT BALANCING RATIONS, YOU'LL NEED TO GO BUY A BOOK TO READ, or you'll keep getting vague answers and more frustration b/c there are so many different answers. The ball is in your court. I will go try to find my old book if you want me to, but I will wait for your reply, or hope that one of our smarter members chirps up. I hope this hasn't confused you and maybe you have some more insight as to why members haven't jumped right in, but hope that we can  have an ongoing project for everyone here.LOL.

 

[KDSC]

here are a couple sites i found

http://www.extension.umn.edu/Beef/components/publications/cfr04.pdf
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/lvstk2/L884.pdf

        We are in south west ks.  We fed Dans ration last year and we really liked it, but we were having it mixed at a mill a couple hours away and it always had fines in it. We are feeding frame score of 4 and 5 heifers and steers that are 5 and 6. I was talking to him and he said he made it specifically for his large framed cattle. mine aren't very large, and he said that if i fed it to them they would get fat very fast. It was only $290 a ton so now it would be like 340 or something.

We have access to a bunch of things, Corn stover, alfalfa, cane, corn, milo, oats, corn silage, DDG's. those are the things we have right here at home, We also have access to a huge feed mill, that will deliver bagged stuff, so we can get it all basically. 

What books would you guys suggest for me since I'm in Kansas?? Thanks a whole lot for your time and effort especially you CAB

 

[KDSC]

found a couple books

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=9791#toc  you can also veiw this book in PDF and see what it show you, it give you pretty much every thing from DM to how much calcium it has

second edition Beef Production  and Management Decisions by Robert E.Taylor

are these any good?

 

[Jill]

The reason you don't get a lot of answers are that there are so many variables, the rations you put up have ingredients in them that I have never even heard of much less used.  I am not a nutritionist and therefore will not give advise on feeding, however i have given out what we use dozens of times on every board around.  We fed the bagged Purina show chow grower and really liked it, but the price got so high that we just couldn't justify it, our recipe was formulated to replicate the bagged grower and you can't tell the difference.  I would suggest that you pull up the bag information on any of the feeds you like, it will give you the analysis of what is in the bag and then you can go to a feed specialist/nutritionist and they will formulate something to match the bag with the ingredients in your area.
I have said before and I will say it again, I don't think there is a nickles worth of difference in any of the feeds on the market, there isn't a magic formula that is great for ever calf, find one you like and stick with it if it works, if not try something different, we don't use supplements, top dressings or any of the other stuff that adds big expense been there done that and can't see a need for it.  We do feed free choice hay and mineral.
I can tell you we feed show animals, we are good at it, they are not "butterball fat" but they are pushed from 2 weeks old until they start to develop fat pockets then we sustain condition on them, not everyone likes them that way, but we are feeding for the show ring and while I know some have had problems, we bring them down to appropriate condition for calving and do not have the calving and breeding issues you hear so much about.  Like CAB says, if you have specific questions I may be able to help or find help for you, what we do works for us, it may not for you.

 

[AAOK]

I have been pm'ing Dan ;D and i am pretty sure he is sick of me asking so many questions

Me?  Nah...............I've just been in celebration mode for the past week - 10 days.  The fireworks last night were mighty spectacular!!!

Here is a link I just found that has some information you can use.  There is a lot more Show Calf information here than just feed stuffs.
http://dallas.tamu.edu/fitandshow/13343661-managingshowcattle.pdf

From a perspective of feeding Show Calves, I was very fortunate to spend the year of 1996 working for Moorman's feed.  At the same time my younger daughter became good freinds (and sometimes a nusiance) with Kirk Steirwalt.  At the time, we had been feeding show heifers for 5 years.  Each year we got a little better at it, not because of increased knowledge, but because we had eliminated many  mistakes.  My daughter was able to talk Kirk out of an ingrediants list for a ration.  I was able to hand it off to both Dairy and Beef nutritionists for Moormans.  They had been to our place, knew our cattle, and knew the resources available to us as well.  With their help, we ended up with a ration that worked perfectly for us, and also cut our costs by 50%.

My best piece of advice would be to locate and contact your area ADM/Moormans Independent Dealer.  They make the best packaged show feeds in the business.  They could certainly suggest what would be best for your needs.  They also have the capability to help you formulate your own ration, and make sure it is balanced.
http://admworld.searchradius.com/locator.php

As I have said on this board before, I believe most feed/nutrition related problems stem from the Feed Program, not the Feed Mixture.  Consistency is my favorite word for feeding Show Cattle.  A consistent ration, feed times, fitting, grooming, exercise, etc.  Find what works for your operation, and stay with it. Many of us humanoids don't readily adapt to change.  Show Calves most certainly don't!!!

Feel free to PM me anytime.  I poitively don't have all the answers, but I have learned a whole lot of what not to do.

 

[CAB]

KDSC, so corn is readily available to you. If you want a very simple deal, you can feed 2% to 3%, (of the calf's body wt.), cracked corn with a commercial protein, most likely 1 lb/hd/day with either free choice long stem grass hay or corn stover for their roughage, or you can use corn SBM, either 44% or 48% balanced with a premix package for your micro nutrients, or you can add other things, such as DDGs or dry gluten. Does your book have or mention the "PEARSON SQUARE"? If you can find examples of different ingredients being used through the formula, you can do about anything. Start simple, ie. 2 ingredients say corn and SBM and solve for protein levels, then add a 3rd ingredient and so on. Let me know if you want me to dust off the cob webs, both off the books & my shrinking brain.
  I went to google search, typed in pearson square, it comes right up as pearson square for formulating rations. Take a look to see if it helps you. You can use as many ingredients as you want , but it does get a little harder the more you use, but is a very good formula to start using yourself to acustom yourself with an idea of how to start balancing rations. Don't beat yourself up over the secret feeds. It's just peoples own preferences and what has worked for them. Once you get the cattle going, let'em grow.

 

[KDSC]

so some thing like this?? could you do multiple(3+) on a thing like this??
http://www.prechel.net/formula/pearson.htm

 

[KDSC]

Isnt there a software out there that you can do the pearson square on and enter more then 2 ingredients???

 

[CAB]

KDSC, actually you should have good access to KSU. They'll have a beef nutrition program that you will be able to decide which feedstuffs to use and plug them in. Start with your local extension agent. He/she should be able to point you in the right direction. It's still fun to dig out the abacus once in awhile.