JIT,
There is no one on this whole board that I learn more from than you. I really don't feel there are many who have the qualifications or knowledge to give their positions as the right one as do you. No one states their case as eloquently and unabrasively (not a real word) as you.
That being said. I have some very opposite ideas to the last couple of your posts and I believe my ideas can be substantiated. As far as genetic improvement is concerned you mentioned that term pre-potent. And noted it was a term used a lot years ago but not much today. Also that there should be lots of offspring who are actually better than their sires especially when mated to the best females of their respective industry but it just doesn't happen that often. Maybe the reason that term isn't used much today is that it was over used and mis-used. In reality, there just aren't many sires that produce bulls who out breed them. They may be able to produce offspring that sure look like they will, but not many emerge that ever do.
It's because genetics aren't as simple as "like begets like." Striving for improvement is one thing but actually gaining it is an extremely long process. Even according to the examples you give. For me, you got off track there by saying how difficult it is to actually improve a productive animal and then addressing the concerns of smaller, less elite breeders in your breed by implying they were jealous of success and implying that these "Elite" breeders are making genetic strides by leaps and bounds over others. I am all about the jealousy thing. If you are successful there are those who will do anything possible to be against you in some form or fashion. However, with the specific people you are referring to, who wield much power in their associations due to the fact that they bring in such a large portion of that associations revenue, maybe they have a legitimate gripe. After all, you just mentioned how difficult it was to make progress and that it just doesn't come around as much as it seems it should.
As far as the clones go, there are many reasons for more than one. First, you have to make several to hope to get one to full term and even past a month old. So if you are lucky enough to do that, there's more than one. Second, like in the case of the Full Flush clones, there are more than one so that they can be used in more than one pasture and breed more cows. That deal was never really about commercial semen production as are the Heat Wave clones. And of course the Heatwave clones are what we are all talking about when we say "clones." The reason there are so many is simply a supply and demand thing. If his progeny didn't do what he was designed to do (win steer shows) better than anything else that is available, there would not be so much demand for the semen. I promise you that those people aren't cloning them for giggles and grins. They have many reasons, multiple millions of reasons to continue to clone Heat Wave. I think us poor people sometimes have a hard time understanding the size of the economics involved with Heat Wave clones. If the judges quit using Heat Wave progeny to win every show from the National Western to anyone's county fair, there won't be any more Heatwave clones.
One point no one has brought up in this particular instance about genetic improvement is that in the case of Heat Wave, the dynamics of the club calf industry may make it difficult to ever measure improvement on ol' Heat Wave. The big time steer thing is run and controlled so much by a handful of traders and jocks. If they have a big time calf and you go to try to buy it, guess who the sire is gonna be? I guarantee you it'll be a Heat Wave every time. WHY? Because Heat Waves win, because if you are going for a national level steer you are going at it to win not as a kids 4-H project. And you know as well as anyone Heat Waves win so that's what you want to hear him say the sire is. If you're a family that just wants to go to his place and get a steer that won't embarrass you at the county level what is it going to be when you ask? A HEAT WAVE, because you know Heat Waves win national shows, surely one would be competitive at your county fair. We will never know who the real sire of many of these cattle are because they are sold as Heat Waves. There may already be two or three really good sons we don't even know about and never will.
But my absolute pet peeve and what I disagree very strongly on was your comment to what Knabe said about steers not needing to be perfectly sound. I want to puke(admittedly a most eloquent term) every time I hear a judge say "I want him to be as sound as possible because he has heifer mates out in the pasture." To me that is an extremely weak argument that holds no water on any front. I am totally with Knabe in that there should be far more important considerations on a show steer than if he is a little short strided or how pretty he walks in a show ring. If he were in a commercial situation, he would get no more dollars for being able to make it to the feed bunk in an attractive fashion. If he had to be lifted and carried to the feed bunk or was lame and didn't feel like going to the feed bunk is one thing. But as long as he makes it why does he have to look good doing it? Oh yeah, he has sisters.
Well the first reason that makes no sense is because we are judging one animal, the one that is in the ring and he is not a breeding animal. What MIGHT be out in the pasture somewhere should have zero relevance to a steer show. We judge one animal on his own merits on one day. The judge has no business extrapolating a family tree from a terminal animal.
Which brings me to my second and most important point as to why that argument is such a farce. These are animals that are bred to be TERMINAL, bred to be killed before they reproduce. Not bred with the idea in mind to be trouble free for years in the pasture. I don't care if it's the show ring or a commercial situation, if you use these sires that consistently make competitive show steers to sire your calves, they are being chosen for a terminal situation. Not a reproductive situation. They are not designed, intended or have any more business in a reproductive situation than a car does under water. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense that it matters what it's heifer mates look like because they are bred to be killed as well. You may CHOOSE to keep some for replacements but you do so with the knowledge that those animals were not intended for that purpose and there may be consequences to your decision.
If Simmental X Angus cross steers were competitive in the show ring, then there would be a point to consider soundness since that is a viable cross for commercial production. But they aren't and the sires we use to produce show steers are made for that purpose and that purpose only. If you keep replacements from these terminal sires, you get the stuff that may come with them. Everything else equal, the pretty walking steer should win. But they are bred to grade and yield and look good doing it. Nothing else should be inferred by a judge.
Now if you want to argue that we should be selecting Simmental X Angus steers as the winners and not the Chi-Maine-Shorty combination's that dominate today, then that is a whole different argument that has merit. But by today's standards, the fact that a steer may have some sisters that some one is taking a chance on making into momma cows should have absolutely no relevance to the placing of a steer in today's show ring.