Collecting old money

[Show Heifer]

With calf selling season upon us, I have a question that I am sure all of us have faced.
I am willing to help out a junior....in fact, have "sold" them lambs and have waited for the money until they sold them at the fair. (It was soooo cool....the next year, the little boy and his family came to the farm. And I expected the same deal. When he picked his lambs, he proudly dug into his pockets and gave me cash with a HUGE smile on his face.) (clapping)
But, how long is too long to wait for money on a sold animal? What about AI fees?  I certainly am not in a position to give animals away, or to AI everyones cows for nothing.
If you go to court, your considered a hard butt. And if you let it slide, you are sacrificing something that YOU deserve (feed, food, new animals...etc) and then word gets out that you can be taken advantage of.
So....what does everyone else do? How do you politely collect due money? How do you not so politely collect money?
And what excuses have you heard on someone not paying the money they owe you?????? ???

 

[red]

Oh boy, this should be a good topic!

I've been told it just ain't there & you can't get blood out of a turnip. We now won't sell unless we have money in hand.

Red

 

[cowz]

Not to sound like the hard butt.......but.......The number one way people tend to take advantage of you....is.....Oops, didn't bring my checkbook with me!!

(What do you mean you came all the way over here to pick up feed or buy a calf......and you did not bring your checkbook with you.?????) ???

This year we had 2 kids who could not pay for their calf in October.  We let them take the calf home but told them they had to come up with the money by February for the weigh in.  They have to have "bill of sale" for the fair weigh in.  It has worked perfectly, because they want to be able to sell in the fair sale.

You take alot of risk waiting until the sale is over because the sale committee's generally do not have the legal right to put liens on the kid's livestock checks.

We have a small feed business and was about to quit last year!!  People always wait until all the feed has been loaded into their trailer or truck before they tell you that the checkbook got left or that they will get paid next month or .............something!

The worst one we ever did was to trade 2 calves for horsebreaking services.   It has been 18 months now, the kid kept his steer check, has a first calf heifer with calf at side.   I still have an empty horse pasture.....long story.....do not ever do any trading.  Now I'm out 2 fillies, a steer, and a maintainer heifer.  Heavy Sigh....excuse me while I wash "stupid sucker" off of my forehead!

 

[DL]

SH - I have done the same thing - waited until the fair was over and the calf sold to get my $ - but only in select cases with families I know very very well. It worked out great. Another option is to tell the kid you need the money now and to get a loan from their dad (or the bank) but of course that doesn't help now! I have been doing a fair amount of "emergency health papers" for people I know but not well - I tell them up front that it will cost you x and you don't get them until I get a check - interestingly every one of these people has asked me if I would work on their cattle! I barter - but only with really good friends. I hate having people owe me money - it drives me nuts because I have to worry about it and I shouldn't have to - I guess I would send them a registered letter to both the kid and the parent (remember it is the parent that is the problem ;D) - saying something like your child owes me x for y and was suppose to pay me after the fair. If I do not receive a check by some date legal action will be taken - then do it!Sometimes a letter from a lawyer or saying that you have contacted you attorney and he/she recommends that you do something lights the fire that was smoldering - good luck

 

[Chap]

I always ask for a deposit when selling calves early and the balance due at pick-up.  Nothing worse than telling the next dozen people through the pasture that a calf is sold to find out 2 months later that the "Buyer" was just hedging and now doesn't want one.  I require 10% and let the buyer know that the calf is still for sale until money is exchanged.  Sold one on the internet several years ago and we got the deposit, delivered the calf, whom had changed for the worse in the time frame, the buyer bailed ,but at least we had that deposit and it helped to take some of the bite out of it.  I would recommend the same when dealing with young people.  Teach them that they need to have a vested interest in the project.  If you are going to work out a "balance due at sale" deal require that they pay a % at delivery.  What is everyone's Guarantee?  I sell steers, "as is" in good health at time of pick up,

 

[OH Breeder]

SH,
ask for a deposit and set distinct time limit for payment with follow up and consquences if they violate agreement. Take the time to type it up and get a signature. If there is a nonpayment situation and all you have is a word it is harder to collect. Protect yourself. It is not a handshake any more. Payment up front or a percentage with balance due ie: in 30 days or at delivery what ever you decide. If there is no payment no delivery or if you have already delivered then collect the premium from the sale of the animal . I have learned the hard way believe me. Many states possession is 9/10th's of the law. You want to give epople a chance but unfortunatley their are folks that can't afford the projects but can not say no.

 

[afhm]

If you do a written contract make sure it is with the parents so it will be valid, minors can't legally enter into a contract.  Make sure and state that if the animal is not paid off by a certain date they forfeit all money paid and the animal.

 

[JbarL]

With calf selling season upon us, I have a question that I am sure all of us have faced.
I am willing to help out a junior....in fact, have "sold" them lambs and have waited for the money until they sold them at the fair. (It was soooo cool....the next year, the little boy and his family came to the farm. And I expected the same deal. When he picked his lambs, he proudly dug into his pockets and gave me cash with a HUGE smile on his face.) (clapping)
But, how long is too long to wait for money on a sold animal? What about AI fees?  I certainly am not in a position to give animals away, or to AI everyones cows for nothing.
If you go to court, your considered a hard butt. And if you let it slide, you are sacrificing something that YOU deserve (feed, food, new animals...etc) and then word gets out that you can be taken advantage of.
So....what does everyone else do? How do you politely collect due money? How do you not so politely collect money?
And what excuses have you heard on someone not paying the money they owe you?????? ???

"willing to help out"...... "sooooo coool"........."cash with HUGH  smile"........sounds like a pretty good deal to me especially for the kid that " got it in his blood"  sounds like a story maybe he'll tell his kids some day about the great folks that helped him " get started".........did he show  your stock well ?   sounds like a win win to me.....whether you get that " warm fuzzy feeling"  or not....it shouldnt be to hard to establish a ground rule for "after the fair" payment, then at least you'll not have to worry about it.  who knows he/she may stay in the herd and work on your ranch someday.....as far as not getting paid....sometimes its worth the money to realize who your dealing with....when your trying to help someone and it doesnt work out....i quess its like tithing...jbarl

 

[chambero]

I used to be the "kid".  We had a little bit of a different deal, but essentially I owed money when we sold the calf.  I would call him the day I got the check from the stock show to let him know the money was here and would have a check in his hand as soon as I got it deposited. 

Unfortunately, I've since learned that others don't do the things I've done.  As a matter of fact, I'm owed money right now on two calves.  The kid has had the money for a couple of months.  The problem is the dad is a very good friend who helps us out a lot.  They are just a little slow to pay.  We probably shouldn't, but we tolerate it because the guy helps us out so much on working cattle and fix-it work. 

On the other hand, we broke off a long-term arrangement for show calf selling cattle partly because we'd have to beg for our money - even though we we were paying all the expenses upfront.  Enough was enough. 

I think ever situation is different.  If it involves a large sum of money, its out of the realm of 4-H project and in the category of serious business transaction.  Payment up front before they get put on the trailer.  If I don't know them or of them  and they give a check, we're writing down DL #'s, License plate numbers, etc. and signing a contract/receipt.

The all-time great story is of a guy who once bought a steer for a large sum (say $20K).  He wrote in $20,000 in the box, but only spelled out Two thousand dollars intentionally.  The seller didn't catch it.  Guess which one the bank considers to take precedent?

 

[knabe]

i'm gonna say 2 thousand.  happened to my stepson once for a smaller amount. 

 

[jason]

 

[jason]

Today, it is really tough to trust anyone without knowing them.  So many scams, I have a hard time taking a check or a cashier's check anymore.  I prefer cold hard cash.

 

[steers4u]

A CHASIERS CHECK IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS CASH!! Now a certified check is not just know the diference.

 

[justintime]

this is a very good topic ! When I was growing up, I remember my dad selling bulls and females on a hand shake and never doubting that there would be any problems. I have done the same, but I don't think that a handshake means as much as it used too. I have been stung a few times, and it seems that it is just human nature to remember these ones the best. I have lost alot of faith in our justice system over the  past few years. Those who go through life using the people around them also are masters at using the justice system. An example... I was owed over $25,000 by a guy on a cattle deal, and he lead me along for an extended period of time. I was left with no recall but to take him to court. After nearly 3 years, of him using every legal loophole he could find with his sleazy lawyer, we still had not got to the court room. By this time, I had a legal bill myself of $18,000 so at this point I was now out $43,000 ( plus interest) . Finally, we got our day in court, and we won the case... easily. We were awarded the $25,000 plus interest plus court costs. The only thing we did not get from the judge was a judgement against him personally. as well as against his company. He promptly appealed the decision, which led to another two year wait to get to the appeal court. During this two year wait, he dissolved his company, and started another company under the same name, only with the year included in it. We again won the court case easily, but we won against a company that was now non existent. Our only recourse was to take this decision to the Supreme Court, which would have meant another 2-3 year wait as well as a deposit of $20,000 for the lawyer to be retained. Needless to say, I licked my wounds and went home. To add insult to injury, this guy still lives near here and has tried to buy cattle from me again.
I still offer credit terms in various ways. I have given some keen kids that I knew couldn't afford to buy agood heifer, a heifer to show. The heifer is theirs to keep and show and I ask them to buy a junior membership so the can show at breed events. I also supply them with semen for the first year free, and for this, I ask them to return the first heifer calf that their heifer produces. This has worked well. I have also offered terms in many of my production sales, and have found this often helps spread income into two tax years. One year, a breeder contacted me and said that he wanted to buy in my sale but he had some serious machinery payments just prior to the sale. He said he was willing to pay 1/3 down at the sale and he would pay me the balance in 3 months. I thought he  would be interested in 3 or 4 head at the maximum. He ended up buying 16 bred females and he bid on many more. He probably added $400- $500  per head onto the sale average and he had me completely paid in two months. I still had outstanding invoices from several other animals that were purchased by sale reps when this guy paid me . I have also helped some people with bull purchases, especially if they are making volume purchases. One commercial man bought 6 bulls a few years ago and paid me over 6 months. We had an agreement that the bulls had to be insured and he paid for the premium. This guy just bought his 14th bull from me two weeks ago. My theory is that this is cash flow and yes, there is an element of risk involved, but I chose who gets terms very carefully, and most are people I have known for some time. Planting a crop involves risk as well. The key is to know how to evaluate good risk from bad risk, which is something we all have to do in many other parts of our lives.

 

[jason]

A CHASIERS CHECK IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS CASH!! Now a certified check is not just know the diference.

Unless the cashier's check is counterfeit, which can be done rather easily.  But, even the cash you take could be fake, less likely however.

 

[DLD]

I do extend some credit on cattle to those I know and trust. I've never had any serious trouble collecting, though it does take awhile sometimes. I don't mind helping a family that needs it, but I have a serious problem with people that want to pay you after they resell your cattle. I can understand needing to hold a check for a few days, but some people want to speak for them when they're 2 months old, pick them up 3 months later, and not pay a dime for another 3 months after that... Sorry, I'm not playin' that game. They can pay interest as well as I can.

The one thing I have learned is that I sell semen strictly on a cash basis. For some reason, that's something alot of people seem to think they need to be in no hurry to pay for...

I have (knock on wood) only ever gotten one hot check, and I called the guy and he apologized profusely and said run it back through, it'll be good. And it was. Guess maybe that's 'cause I'm pretty careful about who I take 'em from, though.

David