knabe
Well-known member
cowman 52 said:
AAOK
County Show = Popularity Contest
- Thread starter green8911
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green8911
Active member
Tallcool1, you just summed up my whole point here. That sounds like a great system in place where you are. What did it take to get that put in place? (and thank you for being courteous)
So you think that they should set a price for the champion and the reserve should get less and the next calf less than the reserve and so on and so forth. Why not price each one and tie it under that price tag and who ever wants to buy it for that, can.
The UN written rule at our fair is the Reserve should not go for more than the Grand, but I have seen some parents get a little b^%% hurt and spend more on the 3 rd place animal to prove their point, to this I say "what ever, your money you spend like you wish." Our fair does not set rules simply because they take 3% so the more they can sell animals for, the more they make.
Then there are the incidents where a family lost the father 6 weeks before the fair, the community they live in got together and pooled there money together and paid $25 bucks a pound for both boy's hogs, under your rules that would not be allowed, sure they could have just added on but the boys would have not got the same sense of support from the community that they did.
I do not like to see kids lose money, and if the adviser failed at anything they should have explained the risk prior to the start of the project. It is not their or the fair boards job to get buyers, I'm sure they try to bring in as many as they can.
The UN written rule at our fair is the Reserve should not go for more than the Grand, but I have seen some parents get a little b^%% hurt and spend more on the 3 rd place animal to prove their point, to this I say "what ever, your money you spend like you wish." Our fair does not set rules simply because they take 3% so the more they can sell animals for, the more they make.
Then there are the incidents where a family lost the father 6 weeks before the fair, the community they live in got together and pooled there money together and paid $25 bucks a pound for both boy's hogs, under your rules that would not be allowed, sure they could have just added on but the boys would have not got the same sense of support from the community that they did.
I do not like to see kids lose money, and if the adviser failed at anything they should have explained the risk prior to the start of the project. It is not their or the fair boards job to get buyers, I'm sure they try to bring in as many as they can.
vc said:
The buyers still set the price. The price tag analogy is really not a very good comparison. You are not looking at it from the BUYERS perspective. These are donations, nothing more.
Just see it from the BUYERS point of view for a minute. They get "leaned on" by their big customer. They go to the sale for the sake of their business. They show up and overpay for the steer, and then they realize that they have 5 other customers there too, but they are out of money. This buyer is "donated out", and has made ONE of his SIX customers happy. They are in a NO WIN situation.
As far as the family that lost their dad.......lame example. That is an act of charity, and a VERY good cause. But it is charitable contribution and does not need to be disguised as an auction proceed. Do you believe that family didn't know that they were the recipients of a charitable contribution?
Again, my opinion is that there needs to be some type of system in place.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
I'd like to see a purse associated with each placing.
Out here we try and treat our buyers with respect, squeeze one and they just do not show up the next year. Granted we have a different situation in our area then a small community.
As far as the family, ya they knew why the community got together and purchased their animals, and thanked everyone of them. But under the scale system you spoke of that would not have been possible. I guess I just like the fact our fair lets whomever spend whatever on whoever's animal they want.
X-Bar a premium for placing order is a way to make sure the winners get something above their sale price, just wonder what those amounts, but there will always be those that will complain it is not enough, the brake down is to top heavy.
As far as the family, ya they knew why the community got together and purchased their animals, and thanked everyone of them. But under the scale system you spoke of that would not have been possible. I guess I just like the fact our fair lets whomever spend whatever on whoever's animal they want.
X-Bar a premium for placing order is a way to make sure the winners get something above their sale price, just wonder what those amounts, but there will always be those that will complain it is not enough, the brake down is to top heavy.
nkotb
Well-known member
If you want things to change, get out and change them. Don't think your kid got enough money? You could have bought his steer. We're all busy, so the time excuse is a joke.
Look at it from the buyers perspective: We used to go to our local sale and buy a few animals. We always supported the families that support our business. There was a bunch of whining, so now we write one check, and all of the 4H kids get a cut. Guess what, now we have more whining from the people who support our business that we are supporting people who take their seed/chem/fertilizer business out of the county. For a buyer, it is a no-win situation. Be glad you got anything.
I have yet to see you post what you did get per pound on the steer. Near as I can tell from the other "momma bear," she is upset, even though she got roughly 2.5X the price of for a fat lamb. Maybe I am wrong, but I would consider any buying at a 4H auction a charitable donation. I think what got most people riled up is your "plan" to take as many kids away from the county fair as you can. Who does this help? If you want something to change, get in and change it. Again, the "I'm busy" excuse is a joke, we're all busy.
Look at it from the buyers perspective: We used to go to our local sale and buy a few animals. We always supported the families that support our business. There was a bunch of whining, so now we write one check, and all of the 4H kids get a cut. Guess what, now we have more whining from the people who support our business that we are supporting people who take their seed/chem/fertilizer business out of the county. For a buyer, it is a no-win situation. Be glad you got anything.
I have yet to see you post what you did get per pound on the steer. Near as I can tell from the other "momma bear," she is upset, even though she got roughly 2.5X the price of for a fat lamb. Maybe I am wrong, but I would consider any buying at a 4H auction a charitable donation. I think what got most people riled up is your "plan" to take as many kids away from the county fair as you can. Who does this help? If you want something to change, get in and change it. Again, the "I'm busy" excuse is a joke, we're all busy.
knabe
Well-known member
nkotb said:
Is it tax deductible?
I could be wrong, but i think its not easy to make a direct monetary contribution to 4h/ffa.
Must be done through fundraisers?
In a perfect world, everyone's kids are above average. This is a joke by garrison keillor, unobtainable (stastically as well), but continuously strived for by government policy, either by rules, redistribution or retribution. Centrally managed econmies take the very thing out of the process they are trying to promote, but kill, incentive, reward, hard work, creativity, diversity.
I think it has been explained by keillor that many remember their experience from the past with rose colored glasses for the above average reference.
At our show the sale committee posts the market value of the market animals based on their weight and current price. Anything the buyer pays above that is a donation of the amount in excess of market value if the buyer keeps the animal for slaughter. Some buyers, who drop $30k-50K at the sale on various animals, donate the animal to say Meals on Wheels, etc. and take a deduction of the whole amount paid. The checks go to the sale committee and it deducts a small percentage to fund the sale operations and then cuts checks to the kids. Some buyers have made a general add on donation to spread it around. I figure the amount in excess of the market value of the animal can be written off as "advertising" rather than a charitable donation.
green8911
Active member
nkotb said:
I think you need to go back and read the posts instead of just scanning them and making a comment that you "believe" is accurate. No, I have not mentioned how much we received per pound because as I already stated, I am thankful to have gotten ANYTHING. We have not complained about the amount at all. And so you know, the exact number was .45 cents per pound if you calculated it out. Still no complaints. And, come on now. Use a little common sense if you have it. Don't you understand that EVERY parent out there would bid on and buy there kids animals IF they had the money to do so! Holy cow, I'd LOVE to have ran the bidding up on my son's steer. That's a dream! Check out teachers salaries if you haven't lately. I'm not complaining about the amount, I'm complaining about the process. Go to a soccer tournament and see what happens. 1st place team gets a big ol' tall 4' trophy. 2nd place gets' one a little smaller. 3rd place gets one smaller than 2nd place, and so on. That's just life and that's the way it works. Want that big trophy? Work for it. Work harder. But in the case of shows like ours, you can work as hard as you want and it doesn't mean anything except some long days and nights and a lot of experience. Like one lady said on here. Her daughter did the whole routine. Sent letters, visited businesses, talked to people, etc., etc. But she still got next to nothing. Because she didn't have that big last name that spent tons of money with the locals, she didn't get much. Is that right? I understand the mentality, but I'm asking morally and ethically, by the very basis that any competition has placements for to begin with, is that really right? I know there's no easy answer and those with the big pockets and wallets are going to argue against me all the way. Its not asking for a "handout" either. Not at all. I like the system presented above where the rules were put in place to state the Grand sets the standard, reserve can't get more than grand, 3rd cant take more than reserve and so on. Thats the way competition by nature works, period. The loser of the superbowl wont get a superbowl ring.
Jive Turkey
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2008
- Messages
- 248
green8911 said:
You sure have done a lot of complaining in this thread to say you're, "not complaining."
What do you plan to do different for next year?
There is a disconnect between the ring placing and the auction price paid. At our county, the reserve has outsold the grand several times in the last 3-4 years. That used to be unheard of, but it's the way it is more recently. The price paid for the grand has decreased some due to loss of a buyer who used to buy the grand steer every year (they sold out for millions and the new owners said they aren't going to support the sale) and the prices paid for steers lower in the sale have increased. We have placed high and lower placed animals outsold ours. I was disappointed at first, but then looked at the kids that outsold ours and figured we just needed to get out and be involved more with the show and the community and make the buyer visits in the month prior to fair. I save up some vehicle repairs and go spend several hundred dollars with one past buyer every year. He shows up and may not buy ours, but he has made $400-500 difference in the price more than once. We aren't topping the sale yet, but have moved from the bottom third to be in the top third.
I protect some kids that I know are good kids by bumping their bids a couple of times. But if the kids are not presenting themselves well at fair and at the sale in the way they dress and act, they won't get my support.
I protect some kids that I know are good kids by bumping their bids a couple of times. But if the kids are not presenting themselves well at fair and at the sale in the way they dress and act, they won't get my support.
Shebet21
Well-known member
I don't think your comparison to the soccer tournament is apples to apples. At your show, did the champion receive a plaque or trophy? How about reserve? And on down the line gets different colored ribbons? That's how it is where my kids show.
The sale is a different deal. As many have said, this is businesses and groups "donating" money to the kids.
I have a job in town and farm as well. Have kids in FFA that have shown for years, some years we win, some years we don't. Some years my kids are towards the top of the sale prices, some years they're not. I also buy an animal or two every year. Right, wrong or otherwise this last year I got together with a few other small time buyers and we decided that we were going to watch the kids get their steers ready and watch the whole show. After it was done, we came to an agreement on what kid worked the hardest all day long. That was the steer we were buying and no matter what it would top the sale. That steer wasn't as pretty as some of the other ones and finished in the bottom half of his class but we thought we were rewarding the kids hard work even though he didn't have the resources to have a better calf.
The sale is a different deal. As many have said, this is businesses and groups "donating" money to the kids.
I have a job in town and farm as well. Have kids in FFA that have shown for years, some years we win, some years we don't. Some years my kids are towards the top of the sale prices, some years they're not. I also buy an animal or two every year. Right, wrong or otherwise this last year I got together with a few other small time buyers and we decided that we were going to watch the kids get their steers ready and watch the whole show. After it was done, we came to an agreement on what kid worked the hardest all day long. That was the steer we were buying and no matter what it would top the sale. That steer wasn't as pretty as some of the other ones and finished in the bottom half of his class but we thought we were rewarding the kids hard work even though he didn't have the resources to have a better calf.
For GoWyo, if a business buys the animal and then gives some of the product to their employees they can wright off the whole animal and the processing. If they keep it for themselves only the amount above market, like you stated. One of the custom butcher shops in the area buys quite at the fair, he donates the meat to the Marines at Camp Pendelton, http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Jun/09/tp-meat-market-owner-banks-on-big-john-reputation/2/
All of these ideas are great and fine, but you are making them from the exhibitor/parent perspective. We don't get to decide - the buyers decide how they want to spend their money. You start trying to make rules and tell someone else how they can spend their money - they just go way and disappear. Very few will take their time to argue if they don't like it. They just disappear. Let that sink in.
If you look at the big picture - total $$ for the kids, the Texas junior livestock auction program from the top (major shows) to the bottom (county/local shows) generates more $$ donations than any other kind of youth program there is - not sports, not boy/girl scouts, not church youth groups, not any other aspect of 4-H/FFA, nothing. Don't take that for granted. You are trying to "fix" something that isn't broken. If you think it is broken - you are only looking at it from your child's viewpoint and not taking the group as a whole.
Even Houston that has a set premium schedule like you say you prefer, the auction is up and down on individual animals/kids that walk through. And 99/100 people hate their set premium system.
If you look at the big picture - total $$ for the kids, the Texas junior livestock auction program from the top (major shows) to the bottom (county/local shows) generates more $$ donations than any other kind of youth program there is - not sports, not boy/girl scouts, not church youth groups, not any other aspect of 4-H/FFA, nothing. Don't take that for granted. You are trying to "fix" something that isn't broken. If you think it is broken - you are only looking at it from your child's viewpoint and not taking the group as a whole.
Even Houston that has a set premium schedule like you say you prefer, the auction is up and down on individual animals/kids that walk through. And 99/100 people hate their set premium system.
You are correct knabe. We had a rather large sum left to our county 4-H programs in a will and had to setup a foundation of sorts to receive and administer the money or it would have went to the state level at the university. ffa not sure about that.knabe said:
LLBUX
Well-known member
I have read with interest all entries in this thread. I thought I would share how our 4-H county fair auction here in Illinois works.
All 4-H barrow, wether lamb, wether goat, steer, rabbit and poultry exhibitors can sell their animals in the 4-H auction. In our county, the sale committee sets a market price for the larger animals and the buyer pays the difference between sale price and market. Example, if the market price was $1.25 a pound, and a steer sells for $2.00/pound, it would actually cost the buyer .75/pound . We do that partially to save some money for the buyers and also to allow folks to show later on at the State fair. Very few buyers actually want the animals and Champion steers are not offered for sale as the owner doesn't want to take the chance of selling a $10-20,000 steer for $3000. Rabbits and poultry are returned to their owners with no pre-set market price and deduction.
Kids are not asked to, nor expected to solicit buyers. They are expected to send thank yous after the sale.
Five years ago we moved to our farm and my son got a steer from his grandpa. He was fed and housed at grandpa's house in a neighboring county. At sale time, we had no idea if his calf would fetch a bid.
We were surprised that the steer was the rate-of-gain champion and moved toward the top of the steer sale. The local elevator, bank and John Deere dealer wound up buying him and have bought his steers each year since that time. I had done business with the bank in the past, but had never worked with the elevator or JD dealer. They gladly stepped up and supported the children from the small town where I live. I have since done a lot of business with the elevator and bought a new tractor from the JD Dealer. That is my way of showing my appreciation.
These are businesses and individuals have no obligation to deal out thousands of dollars at 4-H auctions. They don't owe anyone a dime.
Yes, more popular kids may get more money. Maybe they come from parents that are more involved in the 4-H program. Maybe they have been around a longer period of time or come from a family that has been around a long time and therefore has more name recognition or spent more money locally at businesses. I say, 'good for them' rather than 'why doesn't my child get as much'?
All in all, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
If American steers don't sell well, perhaps show an exotic this year.
All 4-H barrow, wether lamb, wether goat, steer, rabbit and poultry exhibitors can sell their animals in the 4-H auction. In our county, the sale committee sets a market price for the larger animals and the buyer pays the difference between sale price and market. Example, if the market price was $1.25 a pound, and a steer sells for $2.00/pound, it would actually cost the buyer .75/pound . We do that partially to save some money for the buyers and also to allow folks to show later on at the State fair. Very few buyers actually want the animals and Champion steers are not offered for sale as the owner doesn't want to take the chance of selling a $10-20,000 steer for $3000. Rabbits and poultry are returned to their owners with no pre-set market price and deduction.
Kids are not asked to, nor expected to solicit buyers. They are expected to send thank yous after the sale.
Five years ago we moved to our farm and my son got a steer from his grandpa. He was fed and housed at grandpa's house in a neighboring county. At sale time, we had no idea if his calf would fetch a bid.
We were surprised that the steer was the rate-of-gain champion and moved toward the top of the steer sale. The local elevator, bank and John Deere dealer wound up buying him and have bought his steers each year since that time. I had done business with the bank in the past, but had never worked with the elevator or JD dealer. They gladly stepped up and supported the children from the small town where I live. I have since done a lot of business with the elevator and bought a new tractor from the JD Dealer. That is my way of showing my appreciation.
These are businesses and individuals have no obligation to deal out thousands of dollars at 4-H auctions. They don't owe anyone a dime.
Yes, more popular kids may get more money. Maybe they come from parents that are more involved in the 4-H program. Maybe they have been around a longer period of time or come from a family that has been around a long time and therefore has more name recognition or spent more money locally at businesses. I say, 'good for them' rather than 'why doesn't my child get as much'?
All in all, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
If American steers don't sell well, perhaps show an exotic this year.
LLBUX
Well-known member
Our buyers also pay their monies to the Morgan County 4-H Foundation. I think that qualifies as a non-profit so they can deduct their donations.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
The question is not whether it is broke or not. The question is can it be improved upon.
