death tax

Help Support Steer Planet:

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
warren buffet says he wants to maintain the death tax

he says this because he benefits the most because he buys companies that are forced to sell, and he buys them at bargain prices.

be careful what you wish for.  it's pretty obvious why this guy is a crook.

this is a self reinforcing fund to take away assets from families and put it in the hands of a fund that will only get bigger.

if you don't think property rights are coming to an end, you are a fool.
 

shorthorns r us

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
900
i think you are grabbing at straws to call warren buffet a crook.  having a different opinion than you on an item of taxation does not make him a crook.  if you look at a berkshire hathaway annual report, you would probably be surprised at buffet's business philosophies.  if you want to find crooks in the business world, most CEOs should be pretty high up on that list.  many of them take several $100 million of compensation out of the pockets of their shareholders for very little actual success.  more often then not they just fire a ton of people and severely cut R&D and cripple the business for the future in the name of increasing EPS.  increased EPS means increase in stock price means options in the money means CEO taking millions off the table at the expense of shareholders and paying Little income tax.

many of those family owned businesses that buffet buys at a "discount" would be run into the ground by the successive generations of ownership, usually the grandchildren of the founder.  when he buys a company, he keeps it going, doesn't cut staff, and usually leaves the family in charge to run things as long as possible.  hopefully the forced sale will be a wake-up call to the family to plan so that their cash doesn't disappear.

if you start a business that becomes worth $50 million bucks and it has to be sold to pay the estate tax, it is, more than likely, your fault.  a good CPA, who actually understands the estate tax, and a reasonable attorney can plan you around 90% of the estate tax.  those plans usually take a few years to fully implement; so, start ASAP.  in my experience, most of those family businesses could use a peek under the hood and such planning only propells them on to further success.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
i agree the "crook" label is overstated.
the law is crooked i should have said.

i still stand firm that the death tax has modified business models to bias against transfer mechanisms.

i also agree on the ceo crook list, from personal experience of fudging milestone achievements, having your wife on the board that takes your company public, filing phony news releases to pump stock, and them dumping massively and moving to the next company.  when we went public, we (the company i worked for )announced x number of "novel" human genes in the pipeline.  turns out they were mice, i knew it before hand, told the ceo and others who misinterpreted the data and why.  he forgot to sort by library code.  basically over 3000 mouse clones were labeled as human and were used to advertise the depth of the drug target pipeline.  oops.

when the company i worked for went public, the ceo, his wife, took about %20 of the company when they were forced to leave.  suffice it to say it left a bitter taste in peoples mouths.  i shortly left after that.

i also agree about family businesses being run into the ground by successive generations, i just don't think they should have a law that helps them along a little faster.

great comments sru, as usual, i'm getting less "emotional" every day.  every once in a while a pjorative sneeks in there.
 

jason

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
3,046
Location
Emporia, Kansas
he  has also donated lots of his wealth away an put bill gate's in charge a lions share of his wealth for philanthropy 
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
again, i would rather have the law set up so that he didn't have to do that.  would rather let "real" market forces weed out poor performers rather than laws to accelerate it and subsidize others to make, to me, anyway, somewhat ambiguous philanthropists.

i guess he could have offered his "management" services and allowed assets to be more distributed.

can't knock him for taking advantage of a system our government set up to "help" us.

once again, get the government out of commerce.

i guess i could write a law that placed a tax on everyone's assets upon transfer and then look good redistributing it.

like to see what ron paul has to say about this one.
 

BJN

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
22
You do understand that the federal estate tax was enacted to serve a valid purpose don't you?  And it serves that purpose.  You also know that 97.5% of the American people will never pay the federal estate tax even as it is currently enacted, don't you?  You also know that not one American farm has ever had to be sold to pay federal estate tax, don't you?  Do you believe this is still the land of opportunity?  Do you believe hard work and determination should get you ahead in America?  Apparently you believe we should live in an aristocrasy.  I don't want to start an argument.  I just want to point out the other side of the case.  I bet you don't know where the term "death tax" originated do you?
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
BJN said:
You do understand that the federal estate tax was enacted to serve a valid purpose don't you?  And it serves that purpose.  You also know that 97.5% of the American people will never pay the federal estate tax even as it is currently enacted, don't you?  You also know that not one American farm has ever had to be sold to pay federal estate tax, don't you?  Do you believe this is still the land of opportunity?  Do you believe hard work and determination should get you ahead in America?  Apparently you believe we should live in an aristocrasy.  I don't want to start an argument.  I just want to point out the other side of the case.  I bet you don't know where the term "death tax" originated do you?

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

i of course realize the federal estate tax was enacted to serve a valid purpose.  however, that purpose is causing farms in california to be broken up and subdivided.  in another post i will address the entrance of subsidies to market conditions and their effect on how many people live in a home.  i obvsiously disagree with you that an american farm that i am considering purchasing is being sold to pay for federal income tax, which i think is taxed at 50% beyond the value of 2.5 million dollars.

here's an article about the death tax
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008743

http://www.estateattorney.com/basicfet.htm

i obviously don't believe in an aristocrasy.  but living in CA, it's pretty easy to eclipse the 2 million dollar estate.  my property, 5 acres witha 1300 ft2 house, a dump at that, is worth about 1 million dollars.  i purchased it years ago for about 450,000.  i am trying to purchase 180 acres for 1.5 million dollars.  you could probably raise 20 cows on this acreage.  the reason for the inflated price is a result of a few things like the excemption for interest on one's loan, development pressure which usually consists of homes only, and not industry, which provides homes for people, but no jobs except jobs like police fire etc, delaying a ponzi scheme that local governments rationalize to pay for the jobs mentioned including raises and benefits that exceed local market conditions despite what the police and teachers unions tell the voters.  two government employees salary's exceed the average salary in most neighborhoods by almost double.  these types of household are some of the richest compared to "normal" neighborhoods.  in california, these two unions are essentially the aristocracy you mention, not the supposed evil landowners who have less voting power on issues where property tax is imposed by virtue of non-property owners and governement owned property essentially taxing property owners to finance their dreams.

as the death tax is not currently indexed, the percentage you mention will only grow lower.  that is unless black market labor pools actually drive down real estate values for every market they enter.  they need to enter the CEO office sweet for americans to get the picture.

http://www.deathtax.com/

here's a link about the death tax.  looks like a "temporary" tax to me.

http://www.deathtax.com/deathtax/faq.html

it was initiated to act as a disencentive for the accumulation of wealth during a time when people incorrectly thought the robber barons were evil.  nothing could be further from the truth.  there is an excellent book about them that offers a different opinion.

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2005/02/in_praise_of_ro.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071110145449AAIwzV4
http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2007/10/robber-barons-o.html

can't remember the title of the book and can't find it googling.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
hillary care, a "LIFE" tax.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/us/politics/04checkpoint.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&ref=politics&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

with penalties.

ok, can we just admit she's a communist, at least a collectivist.  i don't want my child anywhere near her village.

this country will have another civil war.  it seems to be catching worldwide, though the wrong side seems to be winning. 

is this really the direction she wants to see the country going?  every facet of one's life controlled by the government?

can't believe so many women and beta males can't see through this.
 

Jill

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
3,551
Location
Gardner, KS
"You also know that not one American farm has ever had to be sold to pay federal estate tax, don't you?"  I don't know where you get your information, but that statement is just false.  The farm directly across from us was sold this year to pay inheritance tax.  The man that owned the farm farmed several hundred acres of ground and had all his life, things developed around him and his daughters ended up inheriting ground that is valued and taxed at a forturne,  this piece of property was one that wasn't at the home place so they sold it to pay the tax.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
Jill said:
"You also know that not one American farm has ever had to be sold to pay federal estate tax, don't you?" 

if they say it to themselves enough times, it's actually true.  no real investigation needed.  this is the essence of populism.  the truth is always inconvenient.

it's kinda like the racism charge.  no real proof needed.
 

BJN

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
22
I said no American farm HAD to be sold to pay federal estate tax.  Many are sold and the proceeds used to pay various taxes, whether it is federal estat tax, state inheritance tax or federal or state capital gains tax.  The fact that a beneficiary elects to sell a farm does not mean that the farm had to be sold to pay federal estate tax.

You also have to remember that if the federal estate tax is repealed, we all lose the step up in basis at death also.  That is much more harmful for American agriculture than the federal estate tax.  The loss of the step up in basis will impact every farmer at death.  Federal estate tax only impacts less than one half of one percent of American farmers.  If you want to  see farmers as a whole in a world of hurt, just take away the stepped up basis at death.

Nobody likes taxes.  Guess what, we all like roads and schools and hospitals and parks and bridges.  There are going to be taxes.  A progressive income tax system and the federal estate tax are necessary evils for civilized society.  I will be the first to say that our federal government is bloated with spending.  Earmarks are ridiculous.  All of our elected federal legislators immediately forget why they were elected.  Our system feeds on itself.  We need to get rid of lobbyists and we need people in Washington who can make a decision based on what is good for the United States of America as a whole instead of decisions aimed solely at getting them re-elected.  Taking away the federal estate tax does not remedy that problem.

You point out that farms in California are being broken up.  Guess what, that is one of the purposes of the federal estate tax.  This is the land of opportunity.  The little guy is supposed to have a chance to get ahead in this country.  You start with nothing, you work hard and you build something from nothing.  The federal estate tax makes that possible.  Without the federal estate tax, land never changes hands and the little farmer never gets his chance to get started.  In an aristocratic society, wealth is maintained for many generations and assets don't change hands.  That is where we go without the federal estate tax.  Farms getting broken up into smaller pieces and selling every now and then is exactly what lets small farmers have a fighting chance to become big farmers.  If the big farmers never have to sell an acre, they just keep getting bigger and bigger until no young farmers can get into the business.  If it were not for corporate farming laws and the federal estate tax, the land in most agricultural states would be controlled by fewer and fewer people and larger and larger corporations.  If that is good for agriculture and the rural way of life, then I will eat my hat.

And why would you call Hillary Clinton a communist?  What on earth does that have to do with the topic and what is it intended to accomplish?  Personally, I believe every one of the individuals running for the office of President are real patriots.  They have a real belief in what they think they can do for our nation.  I think they are all sincere even though they have completely opposite viewpoints.  They all put their reputations on the line.  I applaud everyone of them for having the intestinal fortitude to withstand a campaign.  I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat - they are doing what they do because they really think they can make a difference.
 

showsteerdlux

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,765
Location
Western NC
ok, can we just admit she's a communist, at least a collectivist.  i don't want my child anywhere near her village.



I totally agree.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
BJN said:
You point out that farms in California are being broken up.  Guess what, that is one of the purposes of the federal estate tax.  This is the land of opportunity.  The little guy is supposed to have a chance to get ahead in this country.  You start with nothing, you work hard and you build something from nothing.  The federal estate tax makes that possible.  Without the federal estate tax, land never changes hands and the little farmer never gets his chance to get started.  In an aristocratic society, wealth is maintained for many generations and assets don't change hands.  That is where we go without the federal estate tax.  Farms getting broken up into smaller pieces and selling every now and then is exactly what lets small farmers have a fighting chance to become big farmers.  If the big farmers never have to sell an acre, they just keep getting bigger and bigger until no young farmers can get into the business.  If it were not for corporate farming laws and the federal estate tax, the land in most agricultural states would be controlled by fewer and fewer people and larger and larger corporations.  If that is good for agriculture and the rural way of life, then I will eat my hat.

And why would you call Hillary Clinton a communist?  What on earth does that have to do with the topic and what is it intended to accomplish?  Personally, I believe every one of the individuals running for the office of President are real patriots.  They have a real belief in what they think they can do for our nation.  I think they are all sincere even though they have completely opposite viewpoints.  They all put their reputations on the line.  I applaud everyone of them for having the intestinal fortitude to withstand a campaign.  I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat - they are doing what they do because they really think they can make a difference.

thoughtful comments BJN

i call hillary a communist because she is one.  sincerety in communism is her stated goal.  she's also stated she's a progressive.  read about that. 

also, CA is a situation that is spreading to the rest of the states.  you mention that the little guy doesn't have a chance.  part of that reason is because so much of the land value is tied up to a ponzi scheme of development based on immigration, both legal and illegal.  CA has restricted it's taxes through proposition 13 in a response to MASSIVE infrastructrue programs whose rate of cost exceeded taxpayers ability to pay for them.  the prooposition was advertised to keep grandma in her home, not to give business a break too.  the government NEVER responded with less spending, they announced bond issue after bond issue and NEVER curbed their spending.  now we have an indian gaming  inititative which is probably going to pass that will give the state 500 milion/ year in additional revenue, but will they reduce spending?  heck no, only a sustained ponzi scheme.

small farmers don't have a fighting chance, they don't have ANY chance in california.  the tax revenue from converting farms to houses is to enticing and what the government is interested, converting farmland to repegged property values to pay for their pet projects and benefits, ie salaries and benefits.  i think nationally, the number of government employees now exceeds the private sector.  didn't use to be that way. 

in an aristocracy, the aristocracy is relatively insulated by economics by more taxation, simple debt removal and other tactics.  in america, bad decsions are reinforced with bankruptcy.  coupled with new inventions which increase efficiency, the government protects outdated jobs.  these protected jobs are a form of aristocracy.  the goverment guarantees their votes with bribes.

the governments goal is the elimination of property rights.

the government, in their zeal to protect us from ourselves, have only ratched up the concentration of property away from individuals to coporations.  this has happened rather quickly in the last 20 years.  there's nothing this government hates more than the little guy.  it's too hard to regulate so many interests.  they would rater have consolidation.  as the president of a small water company, i deal with this some what often.  the government complains they don't have time to regulate all of this, yet the keep increasing the number of tests for all small water companies to "pay" for their testing essentially, rather than letting us just use our own water how the shareholders see fit, particularly since none of us drink it.

Folks, the government HATES small business, that's why they give subsidies to big box stores etc.

there's an acronym in the book smallmart called TINOW.  it means there is no other way.  but there is.  distributed power was what this country was founded on.  look around you.  everywhere there is pressure to consolidate it.  no small business can compete by trying to follow the rules as the rules are set up for companies which span multiple states and subsidize transportation costs to keep them artificially low so it makes sense for china to do business here.  yes, i said energy costs are artificially low, and in the past, i have said they are artificially high, so how can two things be true at the same time? 

think about it.  government tries very hard to control the economy. 
 

fluffer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
644
Location
Springfield, Ohio
The Death tax is a HUGE issue to me!  I am one of those people who's parents started a small business.  My siblings and I stand to inherit it.  We have actually had to buy insurance to hopefully cover the taxes that we will have when we inherit the business.  Can someone please explain to me why in the heck I have to buy insurance to inherit a company that my father built with his own money.  You Democratic/liberal thinkers would say it is for the greater common good.  I say that is a load of crap!  You think I like seeing my hard earned money going to welfare people, and schools that I will NEVER send my kids to because they are government run. 

What business is it of the governments what I inherit anyways?  TO me the death tax says I have to pay the government to own something I already own.  REDUCULOUS!!!!

A government powerfull enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take everything you have away! 
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
Britain Gives Formal Recognition to Polygamy

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Polygamy_officially_recognised_in_UK/articleshow/2753681.cms

this is "freedom is progressive", as outlined by george lakoff of berkeley
http://www.chelseagreen.com/about/politicsandpractice/news/2006/july18

this basically means there are no lines.

morality becomes a circular argument and is null and void.

is it any wonder people are leaving britain in droves?

surrounding one's self with people of similar values is now discrminatory, and will soon be illegal.

you won't be allowed a choice in schools for your children with your own tax dollar, you have to pay twice to shield your children from this nonsense.

this is the true end game of diversity.  there will be NONE!
 

common sense

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
359
Your point about simple estate and business planning is a good one.  I spoke to an IRS attorney in the estate and gift tax division and he told me that with simple planning the percentage of people subject to the estate tax would be "significantly less than one percent".  It seems to me that we are wasting a lot of time arguing over a law which impacts very few people.  There are many issues of much greater importance to agricultural families than the federal estate tax.
 

fluffer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
644
Location
Springfield, Ohio
common sense said:
Your point about simple estate and business planning is a good one.  I spoke to an IRS attorney in the estate and gift tax division and he told me that with simple planning the percentage of people subject to the estate tax would be "significantly less than one percent".  It seems to me that we are wasting a lot of time arguing over a law which impacts very few people.  There are many issues of much greater importance to agricultural families than the federal estate tax.

I agree with you, however, if your one of those people it effects-like me- it is a pretty big deal. If my family and I don't plan now my siblings and I could loose everthing my family has worked so hard to build. Yes, we can take steps to prevent loosing it.  At least as it stands right now.  But my question is why do we have to take steps to protect it.  it is ours to begin with.

I would like to say I agree in not putting your dog in a fight that doesn't effect you.  A few years ago we had a vote in my home state to raise minimum wage from 5.15 to 6.85/hr.  I had so many people say 'well, it doesn't effect me, but I just think about all those people who are trying to raise a family on minimum wage".  If only the people who were effected voted for it it would not have passed.  Mostly just highschool kids get minimum wage.

Of course you all know that the US has raised minimum wage.  It is in the Constitution now.  SO it went up 1/1 and will go up every year now on.  What have all of you been hearing on the news?  How business are scaling back on employment and cutting jobs.  Mostly retail type businesses.  The media claims it is the economy, etc... not one has mentioned it may be because minimum wage has gone up.  I work in the retail industry and TRUST me we have to cut hours because of the wage hike.  OK, I digress.. thanks for letting me vent a moment  :)

Fluffer
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,647
Location
Hollister, CA
fluffer said:
A few years ago we had a vote in my home state to raise minimum wage from 5.15 to 6.85/hr. 
Fluffer

of course kids used to do these jobs.  "low income" housing is modeled after making owning a home to be affordable to this wage.  sad.

http://www.quintcareers.com/surviving_low-wage_jobs.html

According to numerous sources, approximately 30 million workers between the ages of 18 and 64 earn less than $9 an hour in their jobs -- a full-time annual income of $18,800, assuming a full-time (40 hour week), 52-week work schedule -- the income that marks the federal poverty line for a family of four.  should these people be enticed to purchase a home on that wage by the government and subprime loans?  NO.

Low-wage workers tend to be white, female, and with limited formal education.



there is no way men (or women, ok parents) should ever allow their daughters to not get an education and seek a life where they get pregnant before the age of at least 21.

but men, in my opinion, hold more than 50% of the responsibility for getting girls pregnant and ruining women's lives.  values that don't respect women really are up high on my discrimination pole.
 

fluffer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
644
Location
Springfield, Ohio
Show me someone who has college education and is getting payed minimum wage...It doesn't happen.  People getting minimum wage are highschool kids or people who have made bad choices.

 

Latest posts

Top