Denver Maine Sale & PHA

[JSchroeder]

As you know the Denver Maine sale no longer allows PHA carriers in it.  While looking at the bulls, there is absolutely no reason to think there are carriers in the group.

There was one bull in the sale that my neighbors from back home all liked as the best of the group, lot #184.  While not a homogeneous group, we all tend to like a certain type of cattle.  The bull stood out to me on Thursday as the best example of the type of bulls we like.  All three of the men who mentioned the bull to me picked him out on their own.

Out of the ~100 bulls in the sale, just one was pulled out at the last minute because it turned out he was a PHA carrier, lot #184.

Just another random one in a hundred chance coincidence with no underlying cause......

 

[knabe]

is that why the bottom side of the pedigree is blank??

 

[JSchroeder]

I'd assume it was an unregistered carrier cow.  That picture in the catalog is a horrendous representation of the bull, I hadn't seen it until now.

I just thought it was hilarious that it happened yet again (picking a PHA carrier out of a set of bulls), especially with such large odds against it happening.

 

[Telos]

Lot 184's vdeo.

http://www.maximumexposurevideos.com/videos/maine/184.html

 

[Telos]

Jeff, on this 184 calf he looks nice, but there are some things I would like to improve on him. The question from you and your cattleman friends, is why did they think he was better then the rest of the group?  I like how he is put together and his smooth and soggy look but would like to see a bigger foot and a little more quarter. From looking at some of the other sale bulls, his main advantage would be his softer look over the others.

 

[JSchroeder]

Honestly, I didn't even recognize the bull in the video you posted and struggled to find even a portion of it that reminded me of what we liked about him.  I agree he does look like he has a softer build to him in that but that would be just about the opposite of how he looks in person.

 

[knabe]

wouldn't be the first time videos were mixed up.  is his eartag visible in the video?

 

[Grass Rts Ranch]

Too bad to hear.  Makes you wonder more about the correlation between some factors we desire in these cattle and being a PHA carrier (a la TH with hair and bone).  But it seems nothing has been shown as consistently with PHA as compared to TH.

The bull's name seems awfully ironic now that the test results came back that way...

 

[knabe]

i hear a weird al song in the background...

 

[Telos]

I think the PHA carrier cattle can fall within a spectrum of being really good to not so good just like their free counterparts. The difference, with regards to phenotype, is that the carriers can sometimes but not always be superior even compaired to the best PHA free cattle. JMO.

 

[Show Heifer]

Jeff, have you ever thought you have been "trained" to think PHA carrier cattle are "better"?  Marketing and purple banners (one man's opinion on a given day, with given cattle) can make you see and think things that are not there, and are not real. 

 

[cowman]

Jeff, have you ever thought you have been "trained" to think PHA carrier cattle are "better"?   Marketing and purple banners (one man's opinion on a given day, with given cattle) can make you see and think things that are not there, and are not real. 

          I can't believe some of the opinions on this topic. Now people are accusing others of essentially "imagining" PHA. Do you honestly think a characteristic, mutation, color, size, or any phenotypic or genotypic trait is progressed/perpetuated/propagated in a breed of livestock if there is not a benefit or desirable result of have the aforementioned trait. Seriously people. Do some research, use some logic. This is not a discussion about whether you like it or not, but really a question of why is it prevalent today? It is prevalent because before we knew it was there we selected FOR it unknowingly...now if they all just sucked or didn't stand out in a crowd it would have been bred out of the breed already. Think about it.

 

[Jill]

Well then I must just not like that "type" because the only carrier I ever used was Irish Whiskey and that wasn't until last year.  Sorry, but I just don't get what you think you are seeing in the PHAC cattle that gives them an advantage over non-carriers.

 

[JSchroeder]

Show Heifer, I couldn't care less about purebred shows and pay no attention the PHA status of the winners.  The type of cattle I'm talking about aren't the best for purebred shows any way.  If I've been trained, it came from evaluating cattle and then later finding out they are carriers AFTER the the fact.  I don't see PHA positive and think a bull is better because quite frankly, I'd rather they were clean.

Secondly, I'm really not sure why you think your reply is relevant to this specific thread.  If you read my original post, you'll notice that there was nothing at all to indicate the bull was a PHA carrier when we all individually picked him out of the 94 bulls in the sale.  In fact, there was nothing but indication that he was clean because of his pedigree in the catalog and the rules of the sale.  

I am saying that there is an expression in the phenotype of cattle resulting from PHA.  Just like with TH, it does not mean that all PHA carriers are better or of a certain type.

Jill, out of anybody on this forum, I'd say you would be the least likely to like the kind of cattle I'm speaking of.  That's not a slam on you, it's just from experience of seeing your reaction to southern cattle.

 

[JSchroeder]

BTW, I think Telos described my opinion best.

 

[Show Heifer]

Believe me cowman, I fully believe in and have seen PHA. So no, I do not think it is "imagined".
My point was, many seem to think that an animal has to be a TH or PHA carrier to have a chance in the show ring, with winning a show being "the best thing for the breeder."  I do not believe that. I think a few people, who call themselves judges, and who we hire to judge a show, have the power to set and create the image of what every other animal should be judged against. That being said, if a purple poka dotted super straight legged, 3 eyed calf would win a major show, then many would breed for that very look.
So, if you follow the show ring, you would develop an "eye" for that type of cattle. Jeff, you said you do not follow the show ring, and I have no reason to doubt you. If you look in the other thread of carriers having "the look of a carrier", I said I do not think you can tell if a carrier is a carrier, of either one, but many disagreed. I wasn't being mean, I was trying to explain why one would select a certain type of animal. Nothing more, nothing less.
You picked a bull out of all others because you liked its appeal (you didn't mention EPD's so I will guess that was not part of your decision). Oddly enough, it turned out to be a carrier. So why did you pick THAT ONE? Hip structure? Front end? Foot placement?  Why do you think that single bull appealled to you?
And I agree, PHA is not a positive (neither is TH for that matter). See, I can be agreeable!!

 

[aj]

I know of a shorthorn bull that some people have. He really good to me. I assumed he was clean by pedigree.  But the bull is out of a luckey ralph daughter so now I wonder about him being pha. I don't think they have tested him yet.

 

[JSchroeder]

Bone and muscle put together well is what we look for.

 

[Telos]

You have to remember this gene (PHA) in many cases have been carried 5,6 or 7 generations from the original bad boys and even farther then that when considering their parentage. The direct Stinger's and Paramount's were selected without knowing anything about PHA. It wasn't the PHAF but the PHAC cattle that were kept for breeding and reproducing. Study your pedigrees. This phenotype that some are convinced of, has been diluted many generations back and is very very subtle and is not going to be black or white. I have seen direct Paramount's and this phenotype is not quite so subtle. There is just more muscle and more calf in them when compaired to their peers. The calves which were kept for breeding were eventually tested and again tested positive for PHA.

Can someone pick PHAC or PHAF cattle? I think that some have the eye to be able to pick good cattle but to be able to pick carriers within a particular herd would be a great accomplishment. Cattle whether free or carriers, still are made up of many ancestors which makes an individual uniquely what it is.