ET services

[knabe]

Cowboy,

what are questions one should ask about ET services.

johne's, particularly if they do dairy
liability
charges per day
what to do in problems
do they get your cow pregnant after flush
advantages of service that comes to ranch other than fee for daily upkeep.  how do you store embryo's, in a semen tank, or separate
where are egss stored
costs seem pretty comparable so i'm not too concerned about that

pretty much everyone around here has said if they can do dairy, it's harder than beef for some reason.

 

[DL]

Hey knabe - I wrote a witty reply to your scale question and it got eaten and I just wasn't in the mood to re do witty!

Johne's (IMHO) is only a real issue if you use someone else's cows for recips - putting valuable embryos in a  cull dairy cow is like putting diamonds in a garbage can

If you are concerned about your cow being at a place ET place where there may be cows with JD - the risk to the cow is incredibly low - all that said washing your cow and isolating her for 2 weeks minimum is not a bad idea

I don't know how other people do it but my embryos are in my semen tank

not sure I answered your question...

 

[Cowboy]

Knabe --  I get asked tons of questions from every single new customer we have ever gotten, and even more from those that have been here for a long time it seems.

Here are a few of the more prevelant ones as I recall -

Cost -- of course, any where from feed and care costs to flush/freeze/transfer/travel -- but hardly ever storage costs, most people I know assume that the costs of keeping those embryos is free. For the most part it is, as I have to have my tanks full any way to keep Ln2 on hand to freeze with and store customer semen for the flushes. There was one time last year I flat ran out of room, we had over 1000 embryos in the tanks that month. I took several hundred of them up to the local bull stud and paid to store them there -- same as semen though -- 3 cents per unit per month. When a cow gives 10-15 embryos every flush -- it does add up fast.

Results are always a hot item -- and my answer is always the same. We do the very best we can, every single time, on every cow -- and NATURE has to help ALOT. You could easily see one cow get 80% fresh OR frozen every time no matter what -- while the very next donor, yielding the same excellent qualitry embryos, would never do better than 20% -- it never ceases to amaze me why it works that way -- and as of today -- I still can not tell you by looking at the cows which one it will be!!! My luck seems to be the better I like you -- the worse it goes!!! So, if you want the great results we all hope for, be as ornery as you can and still be allowed to show up !! hehehehehe

Health -- here is one that most people don't ask enough questions on. I am emphatic about donor health. Over and above the normal state requirement for health papers both in and out of here -- I have been known to go the extra mile and do some blood work thru the local vets at my cost to make sure I know what we have out there. Not long ago, I did test a suspect cow -- she just didn't look right to me and was always a really hard keeper, turned out she had both BLV and was hot for Johnes as well. She was quaranteened away from the rest of the donors, and I did do her one time only. She did produce 9 good embryos, the owner sent her to slaughter. He has been one of my best customers ever since.

I also routinely pour the cows for both internal and external parisites, it's part of the deal here.

I always at least offer to breed the donor after she is done flushing, MOST of them breed right back -- again, UNLESS I REALLY LIKE YOU that is, then they seem to be more difficult (GO ahead and smile those of you in the know!!!)

I tend to trust every one until they prove I shouldn't have (Not always the best method -- mmmm?) That builds good faith quickly -- I rarely have problems with late payments, the number one reason we either stay in business or go out -- cash flow.!!!

Shipping -- again, not a problem. I am fortunate to have a good facility close by, they do an excellent job of not only collecting bulls, but transport and recieve shippers every day during season.

Export?? -- There again, we can treat for export if given ample time to prepare. The only issue I have is that we are not technically CERTIFIED due to the fact I am not a Vet, and for that reason, we have a limited number of countries I could collect for as most of them require a "Certified" facility to do the collection (Politics if you will)

Other questions I get are related to how often we collect (60 days unless absolutely FORCED to do less ), how much semen (2 per flush), can we handle pairs (Yes) and the list goes on.

Sorry I was late in getting you an answer -- and I hope you found this interesting!

Terry

 

[justme]

great answer cowboy!  Not my question but I always wondered about that stuff

 

[knabe]

thanks cowboy,

the 60 days you mention is for 3 cycles since you don't have to wait the full 21 days for the first one as you either give shots or the owner knows when the last cycle was.  is giving the shots rather than the natural cycle one reason for the "damage" to the cow long term, other hormone shots throughtout the ET process or both.  do you prefer to always give the shot rather than the natural cycle as i think you can get better quality eggs etc?  and it's just easier management wise on your end rather than taking the word of the customer when the heat cycle is.  one of my cows has a variable cycle, 21-24 days, she's the one who had twins, so i didnt' breed her in the spring, but just bred her, so i'm going to flush her next spring unless she has twins again.

 

[Cowboy]

Let me clarify my 60 day refference for you.

When a donor has a good heat and is scheduled to flush -- that is called day -0-.

About +/- day 11 we start the series of injection to superovulate -- with one shot of Prostoglandins given during that process, and she will be in heat on about day 15-16 depending on when you started her. Flush day would then be day 22 or 23.

On flush day I do NOT inject any drug, I do not induce another heat that day, instead, I simply infuse them with Biomycin-C and turn her loose. 14 days later give or take she will return to heat on her own, and be very clean doing it.

I wait for her to have her next natural cycle 21 days later, and that is called day -0- once again. By following this time line, you will flush her almost routinely at 50 days, it doesn't vary more thana day or two either way. Works VERY well for most donors and you don't have to keep shooting them up to get a heat. This is of course here at home, as resident donors, but they will respond the same on the road as well, they just have to be watched pretty close and not missed.

The damage refered to is the result of mutiple injections over and over again, especially on flush day. I do not feel it is good for these cows to try and rapidly regress the multiple CL's present on flush day, I let them go and they regress on thier own when the cycle dictates it. I have very very rarely had to deal with a cystic donor cow here after we flush them.

Again, I do not induce a heat on a donor unless I absolutely have to -- a natural heat for day -0- will yield - on average - a better response to the drugs for superovulation and most of the time achieve a better quality embryo on flush day! Remember, I do not shoot the donors unless I absolutely have no choice, and am told to hurry things up by the owners -- even then I have been known to argue the point! I hope that helps clarify that part of things -- they tell ME when they need flushed, I do not tell them!

Terry

 

[Jill]

I guess I have a question, our embryologist has us give a lut shot at 7 days after flush to get rid of any they may have missed, is that not needed?  I know we let 1 go once and ended up with twins, so we have always given the shot since then.

 

[Cowboy]

Hello Jill -- in my reply above to Knabe I incorrectly typed "50" days when it is in reality "60" days, my mistake in the heat of the moment!! hehehe

Here is why I do not need to re-inject those donors --

By infusing them on flush day with the Biomycin-C product -- it will do 2 things -- first of all, it will most certainly prevent any form or chance of an infection due to the trauma of the flush -- that is very important in my every day thinking -- it simply does work very well as it is a product designed for the prevention and treatment of endometritis (Uterin Infections)

Secondly, in all the years of doing this I have never, not one single time, ever had a donor stay pregnant. Simply put -- I have never seen an embryo tuff enough to live thru a bath of tetracyclene!!! So in esence -- by simply infusing them with 30 ml Biomycin-C, you both prevent infection and kill any embryo by chance missed during the flush.

Also please do keep in mind, by not shooting them, you drasticly reduce the chance of inducing a possible cystic follicle on that first heat. Also, some of these donors who may have been flushed alot OR are simply very fertile will have a tendency to have a higher than normal FSH and Es level after a flush, at least for a heat or two, and could and many times do ovulate more than one egg during the next heat.

If you plan to breed a donor soon after a flush, do so without inducement, or better yet, wait until her second natural heat post flush -- and the chance of twining will go down alot! No warrant they still will not do it on occasion, but certainly much less often!

Any way -- there's the reason I do what I do, it has worked extremely well for 26 years, and is hard to change something that has that kind of track record!

Best of luck to all -- Terry

 

[Jill]

Thanks, I'll have to ask my guys why they don't do that.