Failure of the Shorthorn breed???

[RyanChandler]

Really don't know what you are meaning XBAR all evidence shows that composite breeds, ONCE STABALIZED, retain their hybrid vigor over generations.  Consistency depends on the animals physical consistency more generally than genetics.  You can put a horrible group of angus cows together with all frame scores and you can put a nice set of composites together and the composites will breed consistent.  Strong argument to be made that purebred animals aren't needed and because of efficiency no reason to have nothing but xbreds.

You cant get a crossbred without using purebred parent stock -

Show me some info that proposes mongrelizing and diluting the gentics of a herd produces an end product that is superior to the 3 way cross-  and real facts- not some rich guy's marketing ploy.

 

[hamburgman]

Why cant you get crossbreds without purebred parent stock? Isn't that what straight composite breeding is all about?  Also no one is talking about mongrel cattle but choosing xbreds to breed with xbreds and if you have say all frame score 5 xbreds they produce the same consistency in calves as frame score 5 purebreds.  I believe it was MARC that did that research, don't know if it is released yet or on the internet however.

 

[RyanChandler]

Because a crossbred is the result of crossing 2 purebred animals of different breeds. I'm not meaning to create a semantics game but a crossbred and a composite are not the same thing.  A mongrel is created when you cross % cattle on % cattle.  That's what a mongrel is: an animal with no FIXED or STABALIZED percentages of purebred blood. 

The reason True composite breeds like Brangus or Gerts for example breed so true is because 1) They are heavily linebred and 2) because the genetics are stabilized at 3/8:5/8  Only when the % are stabilized will you have a homogeneous product.

So many people see crossbred bulls and are like "WOW" these individuals sure looks good.... well of course they do... they are the RESULT of hybrid vigor- the PRODUCT of heterosis; the end result IMO- They don't create hybrid vigor, they express hybrid vigor.  IF you want to replicate the results, then you need to use the genetics that produced the "WOW" you see. 

 

[hamburgman]

Ok, I should have clarified that xbreds I was talking about would be fairly fixed in their makeup also.  There are plenty of people breeding their own sim angus cows to sim angus bulls and getting great results.  If you want consistency don't breed your frame score 4 cow to a frame score 7 bull, most likely that progeny won't be consistent, same would hold for a purebred though.

Wouldn't a crossbred bull also pass on hybrid vigor, because 50% of the calf's genetic makeup would be from two different breeds?  While not maximizing heterosis (which is nearly impossible in the real world) you would still definitely achieve it.  Also they hybrids have longer useful lives, produce more and better sperm and settle more cows, so that seems to be a nice benefit. 

 

[RyanChandler]

Ok, I should have clarified that xbreds I was talking about would be fairly fixed in their makeup also.  There are plenty of people breeding their own sim angus cows to sim angus bulls and getting great results.  If you want consistency don't breed your frame score 4 cow to a frame score 7 bull, most likely that progeny won't be consistent, same would hold for a purebred though.

Wouldn't a crossbred bull also pass on hybrid vigor, because 50% of the calf's genetic makeup would be from two different breeds?  While not maximizing heterosis (which is nearly impossible in the real world) you would still definitely achieve it.  Also they hybrids have longer useful lives, produce more and better sperm and settle more cows, so that seems to be a nice benefit. 

Fairly fixed and stabalized are still considerably different. Until the percentages are stabalized- no clear breed character can be established.  I agree those people breeding random % pb sim angus to random % sim angus are getting good results- the question is though, "How much better would their results be if they were using stabalized genetics?"  The school of thought that I subscribe to would say substantially better...

That's not the way it works man, MATERNAL HETEROSIS is the key to maximizing hybrid vigor.  

 

[hamburgman]

Agreed with females being a way to maximize heterosis benefits in a herd, but previously you stated that bulls don't bring in hybrid vigor they just express it if they are hybrids.

 

[comercialfarmer]

Ok, I should have clarified that xbreds I was talking about would be fairly fixed in their makeup also.  There are plenty of people breeding their own sim angus cows to sim angus bulls and getting great results.  If you want consistency don't breed your frame score 4 cow to a frame score 7 bull, most likely that progeny won't be consistent, same would hold for a purebred though.

Wouldn't a crossbred bull also pass on hybrid vigor, because 50% of the calf's genetic makeup would be from two different breeds?  While not maximizing heterosis (which is nearly impossible in the real world) you would still definitely achieve it.  Also they hybrids have longer useful lives, produce more and better sperm and settle more cows, so that seems to be a nice benefit. 

Do you have any statistical data to support that hybrids settle significantly more cows?  The numbers I found were in the decimals of percentages. 

A crossbred female is statistically more fertile than purebred cows and this is significantly different from males due to her anatomy being significantly different from males.    Females have 1 egg (1 chance), males have thousands and thousands of sperm (thousand and thousands of chances).  A group of females expressing 5% increase in fertility is a big thing.  If a bull has been evaluated and appropriately producing quality semen, the difference between several thousand sperm, and several thousand sperm + another few hundred or thousand won't really result in more females pregnant. 

You may have a  higher percentage of bulls in any given group considered to meet the criteria of being "fertile", but this is different than saying once you choose a specific "fertile" bull he will get x number of more cows pregnant in each cycle. 



This has been discussed on here before, but yes cross bred cattle x cross bred cattle can result in hybrid vigor.  But the degree you get will be maximized in a 3 way cross as well as maximize your consistency. 

I'm not sure how you can find 2 different breeds of cattle that look so similar that a resulting cross will look like both parents.  If you do find that, I think you have already lost some significant heterosis.  I bet if you look far enough back, you will find common ancestors. 

And yes, you can breed crossbred x crossbred and maintain some heterosis and may only be a little lower than F1 crosses.  But those F1 crosses will be more consistent across the board. 

Can someone benefit from a hybrid bull-  Sure, there are many people that like the idea of simangus, or balancers to decrease the amount of exotic influence but still get a little heterosis and growth. 

But lets be careful to not make it out to be more than it really it is.  If you want consistency, a purebred (especially linebred) bull will give you the most. 

 

[RyanChandler]

"I'm not sure how you can find 2 different breeds of cattle that look so similar that a resulting cross will look like both parents.  If you do find that, I think you have already lost some significant heterosis."

(clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock> (clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock>

 

[itk]

I will never forget watching the Appendix show at Jr. Nationals in Indy however many years ago and a solid red maine heifer showed. Not a lick of shorthorn in her pedigree but with the exceptions that the breed made to allow maines in the herd book they were able to get 3/4 papers, if I remember right.

A few thoughts from a guy whos cows live in a nitrogen tank so take them with a grain of salt. On the first day of Animal Science 101 we all learn heterosis is maximised at 3 breeds, end of discussion. As purebreed breeders it is our responsibility to sell heterosis to our customers. If you are selling F1 or crossbred bulls and replacement females 9 times out of 10 you are taking heterosis from your customer. My biggest concern with crossing shorthorns is losing breed identity. I remember the KS Angus Assoc. had a goal at one point that 80% of the cattle in Kansas be black. They didn't care if they were angus or not. Whats the point of having a breed if it has no identity. Just saying I want to raise "good red cows or good black cows" dose not make you a seedstock producer.

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

Rabble Rabble Rabble, In the end were all raising Iranian Cattle.
BOOM!
All world's 1.5b cattle originated from 80 wild ox  that were domesticated in what is now Iran some 10,500 years ago"
http://www.beefcentral.com/p/news/article/1436

 

[hamburgman]

That article is really interesting.  Wonder if the hox genes played a role.

 

[nate53]

From commercial farmer: "I'm not sure how you can find 2 different breeds of cattle that look so similar that a resulting cross will look like both parents.  If you do find that, I think you have already lost some significant heterosis."

(clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock> (clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock>

  I will argue that there are certain shorthorn, red angus, black angus, Charolais, etc. that are very similar in type and looks.  If one was to paint them all black, one couldn't tell which breed was which and yet all bring different strong points and negative ones to a mating (so there would still be significant heterosis).  Theoretically the offspring would be similar.  I will also say that their is as much diversity (different types) in these breeds as there is between two different breeds.  Mating two unlike animals or breeds and expecting consistency and maximum hybrid vigor, is a nice idea but if I have to give up consistency to get hybrid vigor count me out.

 

[feeder duck]

WOW! I am so not getting into this thread anymore than this post.

 

[knabe]

That article is really interesting.  Wonder if the hox genes played a role.

ok, that at least is an interesting comment.

why do you say that.  i sequenced many hox genes and there is tons of literature out there.

even coelocanth hox genes are sequenced.

 

[comercialfarmer]

Rabble Rabble Rabble, In the end were all raising Iranian Cattle.
BOOM!
All world's 1.5b cattle originated from 80 wild ox  that were domesticated in what is now Iran some 10,500 years ago"
http://www.beefcentral.com/p/news/article/1436

Maybe even fewer like 2?  (angel)

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Rabble Rabble Rabble, In the end were all raising Iranian Cattle.
BOOM!
All world's 1.5b cattle originated from 80 wild ox  that were domesticated in what is now Iran some 10,500 years ago"
http://www.beefcentral.com/p/news/article/1436

////WEll-the rugbeeters of the world didnt influence the WHITE wild forest cattle of the British Isles-It would have to of been the Romans-which stands to Reason-as WHITE Chianinas are considered one of the oldest and craziest breeds of cattle-the pictures(from Murals) Ive seen of ancient roman cattle werent white,they were red and or black with white markings-etc. I do not know if the wild colored Shorthorns descend from Iran-or any of the other rugbeeter tribes,but every time I pass by an AHABBBB THE AAAARAB used eh car eh dealership-I look at thier outfits and think of some wild colored roan shorthorn or X bred O0

 

[hamburgman]

Why do I ask about the hox genes?  I guess I bring them up because when I learned about them in biology it was my understanding that they turn off and on at random times.  So when we discussed it in class it made some sense to me to see these as a tool of micro-evolution.  I am by no means an expert in genetics however.  Do you think the hox genes might have played a role Knabe.

 

[knabe]

Don't think hox genes playe pd a role as they are pattern formation genes and I wouldn't call their expression even remotely random.

On the other hand, if they are randomly expressed, it would at least be an explanation for different species.

 

[RyanChandler]

From commercial farmer: "I'm not sure how you can find 2 different breeds of cattle that look so similar that a resulting cross will look like both parents.  If you do find that, I think you have already lost some significant heterosis."

(clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock> (clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock>

   If one was to paint them all black, one couldn't tell which breed was which and yet all bring different strong points and negative ones to a mating (so there would still be significant heterosis).

IF that was the case and you couldn't tell which was which based on phenotype- then all would have the SAME positive and negative characteristics too.  Form follows function. 

 

[nate53]

From commercial farmer: "I'm not sure how you can find 2 different breeds of cattle that look so similar that a resulting cross will look like both parents.  If you do find that, I think you have already lost some significant heterosis."

(clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock> (clapping) (thumbsup) <party> <rock>

  If one was to paint them all black, one couldn't tell which breed was which and yet all bring different strong points and negative ones to a mating (so there would still be significant heterosis).

IF that was the case and you couldn't tell which was which based on phenotype- then all would have the SAME positive and negative characteristics too.   Form follows function.  

In very general terms you would be correct!  I have a ?, let's say you have 10 bred angus heifers all look nearly identical, but all were unrelated.  So all must be the same in marbling, docility, milking ability, b.w., growth,  etc.?  Since they look the same they must be the same is that not what you are saying?

This will be my last post on this FAILURE OF THE SHORTHORN THREAD in regards to things other than the failure of shorthorns!
Shorthorns have failed at somethings, and yet they have succeeded in getting some non shorty people to give them a try ( which would also mean they have succeeded as well). <party> <party>