Feed lot info

[harley]

I'm coming out of the closet.  Yes, it's true.. I belong to another board.  Please don't judge me, but it's a low carb way of life eating board.  There I've said it.. and I feel better!  (lol)   
Seems like I might have stepped in it a bit over there and I came running back to solicit some help with these city folk!  They are all singing the praises of grass fed beef... which is fine, BUT.. I think they are doing it for the wrong reasons.  You know... the kinder, gentler (PETA) way of raising beef.  I thought my posts to them were pretty good, but there's one that's gonna be a handful, so I've got to get all the info so I can head her off at the pass.  Of course she's read a book  about it, so she's an expert.  Her book says the antibiotics in beef are because the high corn ration burns up their livers... I say it's to prevent sickness.  So come on guys and gals.. is it me or the city slicker??  Are most of these calves on high corn rations long enough to burn up their livers?  What is the typical amount of time a calf is on feed?  Come on my peeps... let me have all the info you've got, and if you have any info on grass fed beef, I'd love to hear that too!  Thanks!  I'm goin' back in!!

 

[olsun]

I am not smart enough to read a book, but I doubt that cattle feeders can afford to feed a high grain ration long enough to damage a liver. I think grass fed beef is fine, but I happen to prefer those grain fed bad boys.JMO

 

[justintime]

Hang in there Harley!  Grass fed beef may be OK in some places in the world, but it does not even taste the same as grain fed beef. You are correct in that antibiotics have no affect on how the liver is affected by long periods of time on high grain diets. Antibiotics are generally only used when health issues dictate them. If your PETA friend is talking about growth hormones, that is a completely different topic. I would suggest that there are as many grass fed cattle that get a growth implant ( such as Ralgro, Synovex H or S etc) as there are feedlot cattle that get it. Be careful with this one though, as you may drive her to complete vegetarian status.

Like most of the issues these urban experts talk about, they do not take the time to learn all the facts. Usually there is some truth mixed in to what they are saying but the rest is simply myth. We, as beef producers, are just as bad in this area. We do not take the time to arm ourselves with all the facts so we can take these myth slingers head on. The truth in her saying that there are livers are affected by long periods of high grain rations is true. Liver absecces are found in 25-30 % of feedlot fed animals. That does not mean the rest of the animal is damaged, as the liver is the bodies flilter system. It collects all the crap that goes through the blood and it tries to expel it out of the body. It also stores some of the things it filters out, and sometimes this can turn into abcesses. This has nothing to do with antibiotics and just as many liver abcesses can be found in animals that had no antibiotics as those that did.

The liver also stores some other things that are good for the animal. For example, when you give an animal  a shot of vitamin AD, it enters the blood system and is filtered out of the blood and stored in the liver. When I went to school ( which was before many of you were even born) we were told that if you give more than 5 or 6 cc of Vit AD to an animal in a two mo nth period, you are just wasting it, as the liver normally can only store this amount. It does not have the capacity to store an unlimited amount, so any excess beyond what can be stored goes on to the kidneys where it is filtered out and excreted.  As the animal's body's needs for Vit AD increase, it is released again into the blood system as required.  This is a very complex system, and I am not sure exactly how it works.

I would suggest there has to be some research articles on the internet that compare grass fed to high grain fed beef. I would try to look some up . I am sure there are some real pluses for both arguments, that that does not mean one is right and the other is wrong. Both could be right ... or partically right. I do know that there is a considerable amount of research being done right now around the world , on growing cattle as long as possible on grass and trying to shorten the period they are grain fed. Some studies are showing that grass fed beef contains more of a chemical that is known to reduce cancer and/or fight cancer growth. I am sure much more will be coming down the pipes in the next few years on this research.

 

[CAB]

  Most livers that are tanked is B/C of abscesses and most are caused by one sort of parasite or another. We have sold corn-fed baby beef for over ten years @ various farmer's markets, so of coarse have seen our fair share of competitors selling grass-fed products. There is a place for grass-fed beef and it is almost always a book read city consumer. We have had customers go and try the grass-fed and most come back as soon as their purchase of grass-fed is gone. Most of the PPL are from the west coast that want grass-fed beef. I can tell you that if you ever saw 2 carcasses hanging side by side, most of you would pick the corn fed beef. Huge differences in appearance. Some sneaky producersuse the grass-fed beef card as a way to sell their old cows running on"GRASS", seriously. JMO. Brent

 

[farwest]

I am surprised TJ hasn't responded to this.  Isn't the lowline breed known for more marbling on grass as well as earlier marbling on feed.

 

[red]

Harley, most of us started out on a different board! Just seemed to migrate here.

Red

 

[knabe]

  Her book says the antibiotics in beef are because the high corn ration burns up their livers...

i say being a liberal burns up your liver, but since there is no study, it doesn't make it true.

ask her to provide actual peer reviewed literature and how many carcasses of each sample population were used in the study and at what ages their livers "burned" up.  were they charred, what describes a burned liver?  ask her to provide information that shows at what time point in feeding trials that burn symptoms show up.  is it one day?  what is the problem with a burned liver anyway?  is this the "feeling" organ.

since almost without exception, these people have no facts and only ancecdotal information, ask for them to provide FACTS THAT ARE PEER REVIEWED.

recent reports in the news regarding human innoculations and autism have been shown to be false and these "studies" were peer reviewed.  so even peer reviewed doesn't guarantee anything. 

 

[simtal]

  Her book says the antibiotics in beef are because the high corn ration burns up their livers... I say it's to prevent sickness.  So come on guys and gals.. is it me or the city slicker??  Are most of these calves on high corn rations long enough to burn up their livers?   What is the typical amount of time a calf is on feed? 

I believe you both are correct.  All fed cattle are on an antibiotic tylosin (Tylan), which helps prevent liver abscesses.  Also, many cattle are given chlorotetracycline (CTC) at a subtheraputic level, which is a growth promoter.  High corn diets are generally rapidly fermentable.  When this happens, bacteria which produce lactic acid thrive.  At the same time, bacteria that use lactic die.  This creates a drop in pH in the rumen.  If this cycle continues, eventually the rumen lining wears away and can create an ulcer.  If the rumen lining is damaged, then there is no barrier to prevent bacteria from escaping to the portal vein, which is a highway to liver.  The bacteria strain that creates liver abscesses is fusobacterium necrophorum  tylan helps kill off this.

liver abscesses still occur in cattle fed distiller's and corn based diets too.

antibiotics fed to cattle have been proven safe and pose no risk to human health.

 

[CAB]

the travelers met me.


View Profile Personal Message (Online)  Re: Feed lot info
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Quote from: harley on Today at 12:17:15 AM
  Her book says the antibiotics in beef are because the high corn ration burns up their livers...


i say being a liberal burns up your liver, but since there is no study, it doesn't make it true.


Now that is funny Knabe.
I say refer your book-smart city dweller to Knabe, via Steer Planet so we can enjoy the battle. Argument won & done. Brent

 

[knabe]

it appears the liver abscesses are caused by a synergistic interaction between two bacteria.  the antibiotic referenced is fed to a large percentage of feedlot cattle.  also, it appears a couple of alternatives are being researched.

i couldn't find research at what level of starch reduction reduced the prevalence of abscesses (but will keep looking).  typically, feedlot diets have around 10% roughage, with the bulk being some form of starch containing grain, along with microingredients and some form of a rumensin type product.

the goal for PETA is to eliminate the feedlot, not find alternatives that reduce abscesses or find solutions to feed people.

 

[harley]

Thanks ya'll for the great info.  Brent, have you ever tried the grass fed beef?  All arguments aside, I would like to see a taste test done by actual consumers.  If I knew where to buy some, I'd try a cut of it just to see.  Some say if you try it you'll never go back.. somehow I doubt it.  I don't even like to see steaks that have nearly all the fat trimmed off of them, let alone one that doesn't have any to begin with.  Amazingly enough, growth hormones have not even entered the discussion, but the antibiotics have... strange.  They want the cattle to live in a pasture, not travel more than 50 miles to the slaughter house, and then have time to rest before slaughter.  The topper is they want the meat packaged immediately. Sounds like a recipe for shoe leather to me.  I'm thinking there should be a "natural grass/grain fed beef"  and it would be properly aged before packaging!

 

[knabe]

sorry, forgot to add this link

http://www.ivynaturalsolutions.com/Portals/Portals/1/Tech%20Bulletins/3228_EffectOfCFCatte.pdf

also, other than the trim required by abscesses, is there really an issue with them, or is it about the "feelings" of the cattle.

i wonder if there is a feeling index of abscesses.

 

[red]

might be off the topic but I hate it when a place uses heavy seasoning to "flavor" the steaks. I don't know about anyone else but when i eat a steak, I want to taste the beef. Always get the feeling they are covering up steaks that aren't the best quality.

Red

 

[rmbcows]

might be off the topic but I hate it when a place uses heavy seasoning to "flavor" the steaks. I don't know about anyone else but when i eat a steak, I want to taste the beef. Always get the feeling they are covering up steaks that aren't the best quality.

Red

Amen Red!!

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

might be off the topic but I hate it when a place uses heavy seasoning to "flavor" the steaks. I don't know about anyone else but when i eat a steak, I want to taste the beef. Always get the feeling they are covering up steaks that aren't the best quality.

Red

Amen Red!!

PREACH ON!!!  It almost sickens me when I walk into a steak house and someone drenches there steak with steak sauce or worse yet Ketchup.  I only use those things for low quality cuts of beef. 

 

[harley]

Maybe you need that stuff for grass fed beef.. JUST KIDDING. 

Thought I'd let ya'll know, they moved my thread asking about grain fed beef from the main low carb lobby to a less visited, organic eating area.  It will surely die now.  I'm feeling like someone was trying to shut me up!       

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

It's all just a conspiracy against the 99% of people that like corn fed beef.

 

[Doc]

got a guy  just outside of Nashville in the ritzy suburb area advertising on craigslist, organic, grass fed beef. $100 gets you 15 lbs of hamburger , 5 lbs of steaks & 5 lbs of roast. He is even bragging that his pastures have not been fertilized in 10 years since he bought this farm.
Red , gotta agree with you, I always ask if they season their steaks & if they say yes , then I tell them I want it naked. At this point my wife usually kicks my leg.

 

[SouthWest]

Wrong.  All fed cattle are not fed Tylan. Some cattle are to prevent liver abcesses.  Tylan is not allowed to be fed to Natural Beef.  What she is referring to is Rumensin.  Is it a ionophore or a antibiotic.  2 different gov agencies give 2 answer.  Rumensin just got approved by the govt. to be fed to Natural Cattle that are not allowed any antibiotics.  Cattle that are on feed for over 360 days can burn their livers by processing huge amounts of grain for long periods of time.  Take for example of a calf fed holstien thats been on a 80% corn ration from day 60 of birth.  When their liver gets affected, efficiency tanks.  So thats not the purpose.  

 

[justintime]

When I am in a restuarant and they ask me if I want some steak sauce or ketchup for my steak, I always reply " not if you cooked it right".

In regards to grass fed beef, I think some grass fed beef is very good, especially if it comes from a breed that tends to marble quicker. I have heard several people say that the steaks in Argentina are incredible. In fact, when I recently asked Stumpy about his trip to Argentina, he said " they have the best steaks I have ever eaten and the best looking women on the planet" He never really said whether the steaks come of a grass finished animal or not. maybe stumpy can give us a little more insight.  In Australia, they still have grass finished beef but more and more, animals are run on grass for a extended period of time, then put in a feedlot for a short period just to add a little more cover ( unless they are going for the Japanese market)

Last summer a friend of mine had an Angus cow break a leg on pasture. He said she was very fat and was 8 years old. He called the local butcher and he said that if her temperature was not elevated, she should be good to butcher. He was planning to have her made completely into hamburger  as he thought a 8 year old cow would be tough chewing. He had the carcass delivered to the local butcher shop to be made into hamburger after it had hung in the cooler for a few days. The butcher phoned him as asked him if he was sure he wanted all hamburger as the carcass looked pretty good. He persuaded my friend to try some steaks and roasts from this 8 year old cow. They have been eating this beef for several months now, and he swears it is the best beef he has had in years.... and this cow was grass fed... with no grain for at least two years. He wants us to stop in and try it, but it hasn't happened yet.