Fightin' Words

[MYT Farms]

I swear, this is not solely to stir the pot. I would like to hopefully get some good discussion out of this. But, when I look at posts like "calving ease club calf A.I. sire", it brings up a bunch of questions. First and foremost, what do we consider calving ease these days? We like to breed heifers so that they have their calf and all we do is run out and tag it. Is calving ease a hard pull, but at least we didn't have to call the vet? And when we talk about an A.I. sire, what in the world qualifies a bull for that prestige? The big names and money getting him to Denver? To me, a calf can show A.I. sire potential, and collection can be good insurance if he turns out great and dies half way through breeding season. But how about a calf crop before we go promoting him as the next great one? True, I am writing this more from a purebred perspective with bearing on a commercial operation. Club calves these days have such low genetic prepotency, it's tough to tell how they'll breed. So is the name of the game hype? Sell as much semen as we can on this calf and then he's done? Hit and miss? I realize purebreds are crossed for that awesome thing called hybrid vigor. 2+2=5. But that vigor comes out in full force on F1 crosses. To me, it would make sense to use a Maine bull on a SimAngus cow and get a stinger calf. It turns out to be a great steer calf that wins state maybe. That's where hybrid vigor needs to go. Not to the sire display at NWSS. Just my 2 cents, not going to change the industry, but just some talking points.

 

[kfacres]

I do not have time to write a real comment on here right now, as I really need to get back to the barn...  will do so tonight

 

[horseshoe b]

you are right on track

  it just goes to show how club calf breeders don't really know a whole lot ,  73 lb bw from a club calf bred bull is not calving ease,  the shape of the calf is more important than weight,  it is hard for a heifer to have a 73lb calf that is square,  we use jersey bulls, the heifers can have those things sideways ,  the calves get up and suck [ hybred vigor ]  and mom learns to be a mother .  the less  stress we put on that uterous the faster she breeds back,  this is what is important  to us,  in order for her to stay in synk. with the cow herd she has to breed back in 70 - 90 days , which can be hard to due if she had any struggles during labor

 

[WMW11]

I am not going to argue with someone on quality of their bull, if he is A-I quality or not.  But when you promote a bull as calving ease, GREAT  for heifers, than you better be ready to back up your words when things go bad.  I sell around 40 bulls a year and when a buyer ask for a heifer bull, I have to think before I tell him which one I would use.    I understand Horseshoe for using a Jersey,  I would like to think there are better options, but if it works for him, fine.  I know in the last few years I have tried a few bulls that are promoted as calving ease,  I would never feel good in driving off and not checking on the heifers every few hours after I have seen the birthweights and shoulders of some of the calves.  I just think at least one or two calf crops should be on the ground before a bull can be promoted as such, unless it is a Jersey or LowLine.  I heard a story several years back that Heat Wave was promoted as a calving ease bull,  I would hate to be the guy that bred his heifers that way.

 

[JTM]

I totally agree with MYT. I think most of it is hype.

 

[texas111]

I agree that its a bunch of bs.  most are promoting their bulls as calving ease just to sell another staw.  but we also have to think about what we are doing.  this is a risky game and if you are not willing to accept loss or defeat you are in the wrong business.  you are going to have loss and you are going to have sucess.  you have to be educated on you cattle and what they will nick well with.  look at your epds.  the trouble is that alot of folks dont keep accurate records and just fly by the seat of their pants.  thats not smart.  however if you are one of the ones that keep accurate records you may still be dooped by a calving ease sire.  this is going to happen and i wish that it was not.  if you step back and look at the grand scheme of things the industry as a whole is in a bad way.  for instance everyone knows that the clubby sector is dominated by heatwave bloodlines.  that is making dirty cattle.  the purebred angus side of the game is being dominated by occ and dcc.  this is in turn narrowing the gene pool and setting us up for failure in the future.  i am not ranting about this its just the way it is.  its a shame that we have become so smart as to collect these genetics that we like, that we are blinded on how we are hurting ourselves in the long run.  just my 2 cents.  I am guilty of what i am speaking of as are much of yall.  i ahve duff and occ genetics running through my herd as well as meyer.  oh well what are we to do?  that is the million dollar question.

 

[Aussie]

<chill> <deadhorse>

 

[chambero]

How about going to the commercial cow website and whining about this?  Anyone that breeds enough cattle to amount to anything learns in a hurry how to handle heifers.  There is never a sure thing with any bull on heifers.  If you calve many out you are going to pull some calves - even using a Jersey or longhorn.

 

[MYT Farms]

If this needs to be removed from steerplanet, that's fine. But when you promote a calving ease or "female" bull, I guess it kind of makes one think exactly what the aim is. I think Aussie is partly on track with the fact that clubbies are a different industry. That I understand, and that's not in debate. What is my question, however, is what are the standards these days within the club calf industry? Are 100 pound calves out of heifers the norm for the industry now? Obviously, no one is going to use a Maine in an Angus commercial herd for calving ease. But when breeding a clubby heifer, guys get so carried away with throwing that first calf away because it's an Angus. My judging coach is consistently pulling 120 lb calves out of cows (not all necessarily heifers), and treats it like it's a normal deal. On the same note, is poor structure the norm? I thought one poster put it very well. We breed straight ended bulls to "coon footed" cows and expect perfect offspring. And, again, we are not talking about shucking this bull out into a 1000 acre pasture with 50 cows, just being collected as a typical clubby A.I. sire. Seems to be poorly thought out.

 

[Shady Lane]

In regards to the calving ease issue etc.


  One random observation I'd share is that we once performed a C-Section on our Jersey Milk Cow having a Jersey calf!



What's my point you might ask?

My point is their is no "perfect" answer and a host of variables, one thing for sure is that you will have more issues on average calving out heifers than mature cows, hence the need for specialised and more careful sire selection as well as management at calving time.

One issue with breeding "clubby" type composite cattle is that their is a wide variation in the combined genetics in the sires as well as the dams and nobody knows exactly how they are going to mix together and "click".

Hence the lack of consistency in the product.

 

[shortyjock89]

I just want to point out that birth weight is not a new issue, nor is it confined to the "clubby" side of the industry.  The composite club calves of today are a relatively new thing, so it's gonna take some time to figure out.  Anyone ever hear of Charolais or Simmentals (really any continental breed) having high birthweights and calving issues? 

Also, no one is forcing anyone to be doing these matings.  If you evaluate a bull to be structurally poor, simply don't use him.  If he isn't big enough for you, don't use him.  If he has too much hair, don't use him.

 

[farwest]

Usually threads like these are started out of jealousy for the industry or someone elses success

 

[shortyjock89]

Usually threads like these are started out of jealousy for the industry or someone elses success

Or they turn into that really really quick. <beer>

 

[vc]

You must have gotten your nickers in a bunch, or need practice for debate class. Club calves and commercial cattle 2 different worlds, Pure bred show cattle and commercial cattle, closer but still miles apart. This is not a new revelation, just old news.

If you do not do your home work on your cows and the bull you plan on breeding, breed to an un-proven bull, try to get the next great one out of a hiefer, you are going to have head aches. How many times has a breeder of Reg. Angus bulls seen seen EPD's change from desirable CE to not so desirable Ce over time. Even a proven CE bulls can not account for the cows side or how the cow was fed during gestation, if the winter was extremely long and cold, and some times $#!+ happens.

If a CE claim is made on an un-proven bull, they have probably taken his birth weight, sires history as well as the dams history and made an educated guess that based off of those factors he should be calving ease, does not always work out that way. (since Club calves do not have EPD's history and barn talk is what you have) Since there are proven CE bulls you can breed to, wait on the new bulls and let someone else prove them. This genetics not rocket science.

Does a politician get elected with out campaining, do products get sold with out advertising, does seemen get sold from a bull you have never heard of? Hype comes when they have produced winner, promotion comes prior.

 

[MYT Farms]

Jealousy? Upset? Not by a long shot. Just figuring out what some parameters are. I wasn't trying to dredge up the industry argument. That's beating a dead horse. But I did want to ask, like in my latest post, what is now deemed as the norm. I wonder if in the quest for superior livestock people are going to extremes. For example, +100 YW in Angus are now the norm. Do I agree with that norm? No. But, my intent was to figure out where people draw lines. They get moved all the time, but I want to feel out the new ones. As far as the A.I. sire comments, I saw on a Denver bull post that it was indeed a Monopoly fest and that some of the bulls would have been better off steers. I'm not condemning promotion, but thinking that perhaps promotion on that many bulls is just a bit over the top. JMO.

 

[kfacres]

you are right on track

  it just goes to show how club calf breeders don't really know a whole lot ,  73 lb bw from a club calf bred bull is not calving ease,  the shape of the calf is more important than weight,  it is hard for a heifer to have a 73lb calf that is square,  we use jersey bulls, the heifers can have those things sideways ,  the calves get up and suck [ hybred vigor ]  and mom learns to be a mother .  the less  stress we put on that uterous the faster she breeds back,  this is what is important  to us,  in order for her to stay in synk. with the cow herd she has to breed back in 70 - 90 days , which can be hard to due if she had any struggles during labor

I find this ironic that you are using Jersey bulls on your beef heifers.. We are using a Red Angus on our Jersey heifers-- go figure... 

How about going to the commercial cow website and whining about this?  Anyone that breeds enough cattle to amount to anything learns in a hurry how to handle heifers.  There is never a sure thing with any bull on heifers.  If you calve many out you are going to pull some calves - even using a Jersey or longhorn.

I have a Red Angus bull that I consider a sure thing..  150 calves born last year in his first year on the job...  Pulled ONE calf- ONE.. and she was coming brisket first.. legs down, head to the side.. NOT the bull's fault.. Calf only weighed 49 lb, but it still took 3 hours to get her out..  Where else in the world would you take 3 hours to pull a 49 lb heifer calf???  And also keep in mind this bull was bred to Angus, Sim, Red Angus, Clubby, Shorthorn, Lim, and all 6 breeds of dairy heifers.. and ONLY to heifers.. not a single mature cow!

 

[Doc]

I have a Red Angus bull that I consider a sure thing..  150 calves born last year in his first year on the job... 

You had a 150 calves in 1 year by a virgin bull? Thats pretty good. What kind of calving window did you have?

 

[cattlefarmer]

I have a Red Angus bull that I consider a sure thing..  150 calves born last year in his first year on the job...

You had a 150 calves in 1 year by a virgin bull? Thats pretty good. What kind of calving window did you have?

I am guessing since he said jerseys and they are generally a dairy breed that the bull had a year to get them all covered.  Except probably the beef heifers. jmo

 

[kfacres]

I have a Red Angus bull that I consider a sure thing..  150 calves born last year in his first year on the job... 

You had a 150 calves in 1 year by a virgin bull? Thats pretty good. What kind of calving window did you have?

He never ran more than 40 heifers at a time- and it (calving season) lasted for a full 13 months- looking back, you can pretty well tell by calving dates, when he was turned in with a new group of heifers.-  we had a few in the middle of Jan, as we first turned him in with a group of heifers for cleanup on about 5 that were still cycling, then started the first of March, and went for a month, had a few Aprils, calved real heavy in May, didn't have much for june/ july.. started again in Aug- when pretty hard core until middle of Oct took about a month off, and its been hell on wheels since after L'ville..

This April, will be the 3rd year we have owned him, but our first calves came last Jan.  He bred ours, the neighbors. and a buddies heifers.  This last group we just are about to finish up calving, were turned in to start calving 12-24-10, and started 12-20..  29 of the 35 calved within the first 3 weeks of being turned in, and the remainder will be calving pretty darn quickly.. I think 1 or 2 will be off, and later than I'd like them to be..  We also have another group of about 20 that should calve in March.  

I'm working on a flyer to help promote him, as we just collected him with Interglobe.. I have some new pictures, as a mature bull now..  

 

[kfacres]

I have a Red Angus bull that I consider a sure thing..  150 calves born last year in his first year on the job...

You had a 150 calves in 1 year by a virgin bull? Thats pretty good. What kind of calving window did you have?

I am guessing since he said jerseys and they are generally a dairy breed that the bull had a year to get them all covered.  Except probably the beef heifers. jmo

I was typing, as you were at the same time.. The neighbors, as well as the buddies, were all beef heifers, as well as a handful of my shorthorn and angus based females.. the majority, were our dairy heifers.. of which about 1/4 are milking shorthorn, 1/4 holstein, 1/4 jersey, and 1/4 crossed up so they don't fit a breed classification.. There is a few of the remaining breeds mixed in-- but not really enough to count...  Our birth weights have been- ranging from 38-71
(16 under 50 lbs)
(42 in the 60s)
(1 over 70 lbs)

MODIFY_ these are the bw's from the heifers at our place, over 100 dairy heifers without looking it up, and it includes our 6 or so beef heifers within the range.  The 38 lb, was actually out of a beef shorthorn heifer- with quite a bit of bw in her pedigree!  Here is a picture of her, born Sept 2- taken a few weeks ago.  
I do not know the Bw's of the other calves (beef dammed)- but I know they weren't assisted at birth.. They don't weigh anything, ever.. just collect up calves in the fall and sell them...