Fire Water for slick smokey steers

[Bulldaddy]

For what it is worth, I did the pictures and video of Firewater.  I still think this is one of the best bulls I have ever pictured myself, for any breed.  I would describe him as moderate framed, medium bodied, sure not racy and not a pud.  He is really nice throuch his front and the way his neck hooks into his shoulders, which to me allows him to be very athletic.  It was mentioned that he looked "nervous" in the video.  I do that intentionally in our videos because to me it shows that the cattle are athletic and functional and have plenty of flexibility to their frame.  He is certainly not wild as we did the still pictures in the yard and it took about two minutes, he stood perfectly still.  This is actually very unusual for any bull being in a bull stud, their testosteron is usually very high.

As a side note, I have bought calves at Troy's for three years in a row, and every one of them was a Firewater, and not only did they show well, but have transitioned into really nice cows, beautiful uddered and easy keeping.

I don't think he is going to add frame for anyone, he is not that kind of bull.  I simply love the bull, and I do believe he could work for club calves.  As a side note, I am pretty sure he is being handled by Genex now as a distributor.

Mark Sneed

Mark, If you did the video and still photo then you would know better that anyone except the owner about disposition of the bull.  I really latched on to the general phenotype of the bull.  I think he would probably work on my cows if moderate means he is a frame 6 or smaller.  Thanks for the feedback.  Genex having the semen makes is easy to obtain.

 

[Bulldaddy]

If your looking for Charolais that have some of the qualities that the show steer people want you proably don't wan't Firewater or many of those Canadian sires because there too big ...The Firewater heifers are winning the purebred shows an the Charolais  show cattle will be 6-7 frame or more ... The show cattle people want big cattle in the Charolais , Angus ,an most other breeds .. These breed Assoc. dont have a lot to say good about the show steer business , an concentrate more on the big growth cattle or carcass cattle an have no real interest in the show steer business ...The Thomas Ranches in Texas hsve a bull that produced some steers an show steer sires like Troubador ...His name is LEAD ON , there is a bull called CHUNKY MONKEY that has done well also , I think KROUPA in S.D. sells that ....DOUGHBOY -is a sire that I will have1-2 calves this spring an he is sired by B/T SMART CHOICE an was owned by CAMP COOLEY in Texas ....The HOODOO cattle have proably caused the most interest so far , We have a half HOODOO sire called B/T ROBINHOOD  who has made us some moderate ,heavy boned females that milk good an have nice udders ...We  have a    FULL HOODOO  BULL that we used the last two years ,have a yearling son this year an used him on my Charolais heifers this year ..........  In my opinion you need a Charolais bull that has a proven record calving heifers out of him with not much trouble ,Most of the bulls used on cows will have bigger calves an also more frame an growth...  Make sure you have accuratte proof of calving heifers an I try not to use a bull with B.W. EPD HIGHER than a +2 on my cows an prefer a 0. or - EPD on my heifers ....   I used Firewater last fall an I think he is a little over +2.....    I bought a bull once as a yearling that was -4. an when I started getting calves he was a +4.   Kris Black Hreford Ranch in Oklahoma has some Hoodoo bulls an very experienced in club calf business ...

I have bred a few really stout, heavy bonded cows to Troubador.  We will see how they turn out.  I have some Hoodoo bred cows and I like them.  Yes, Kris Black has some good Hoodoo bulls. Some that I have seen have too much personality for me.  I liked the lot 3 bull from his 2009 bull sale that he has named Polar Ice.  Unfortunately, he was not producing semen when I needed it so I went with plan b and used Uno Mas, a charolais influenced heatwave son and No Apologies, a tank son that was lot 7 from Kris's 2009 sale in a effort to produce those smokey calves that are in demand down here in Texas. 

 

[Telos]

Really enjoying his thread. Enlightening.

 

[frostback]

Hey Freddy,,, What kind of cows does Troubador work on? I use Chunky Monkey on my smaller carrier cows and get along with that. Troub looks smaller framed and I dont have many large framed cows anymore. Looks like he throws more hair than a PB char would too.

 

[sjc]

Glad to hear the Rawe bulls are working for you. He does buy a bunch of feeder calves from his bull customers out of Viking so that helps his average as well. I will keep them in mind this spring.

 

[JY]

Hey, Freddy
You were mentioning some of the french and older charolais bloodlines. If you could find any do you think that you could get a moderate, club calf kind of pb bull out of FR31. I know the real FR31's were not that big framed. I am not talking about the ones that were not really out of him. I also know I would only flush him because i would be afraid of the ones's that might come too big. Sounds bad, but that's the way it is.

 

[Mark H]

JY,

If you are looking for  a small framed, easy calving smokey bull consider using a Murray Grey.  They are very easy calving and frame 5 to 6 bulls are plentiful.  You will lose performance and muscle but that likely isn't one of your concerns..

 

[Freddy]

THE way I read this post this post wanted something that would work in  his show calf program for moderate muscled females an maybe some steers ...Its pretty plain what works for you guys in CANADA proably won't work down here in the show calf market.  AS OF NOW MOST JUDGES DON'T WANT ANYTHING OVER 1400 LBS ..An from listening to your posts that isn't big enought for you .also frame is definitely a factor in the show cattle .  Birth weight doesn't scare most of the show steer people an some prefer a big birth weight to raise the great one ...FR31 or AVIGNON FR31,FACCO C09  or a bull called CONNECTION  would have worked raising show steeers now .....Most of the French bulls had bigger birth weight than the Michaelis  an 4T cattle before them.The guy that had calving problems FR31 wants to remember the cows you use have something to do with it ....WYOMING WIND  we used him a couple years before other people got to in Ne. ,used him on heifer, our heifers an had no problems at all ...Just calved them in the hills with cows in the fall.... Friends of mine in Charolais were getting 120 lb calves plus on their cows an not sure if they used him on heifers but don't think so... ALLIANCE a son from Canada , proably not used on heifers , I was basically just trying to help this guy get something that will work for his cow herd an there is a lot of difference in some of the Charolais bulls ....FR31  --IN MY OPINION an experience was one of the easier calving French bulls an would also at this time in history pick him in my top three of Charolais bulls ...

 

[spb]

Freddy, We are just getting into Charolais business to make club calves and sell a few white bulls and was curious what your top 3 Bulls are.

 

[Freddy]

There proably getting tired  of me on here an this subject,I have a unfair advantage ,I have worked with greatest breed  of cattle there is for 55 years an because of temperment an to big birth weights this breed will never get the attention it deserves ......

 

[Mark H]

Freddy,

How would that Wyoming Wind son you raised Fred's Husker do?
By the way birth weight directly impacts a bulls marketability in Canada as well.  Check out the bull sale catalogs in Canada to see how much it is emphasized.

 

[JY]

Thank you Freddy for your thoughts, guess I hit a nerve with Mark H. I am not a toad fan but realize that to sell show steers for good money you have to raise what is being used. Thank goodness judges aren't using as small a steers as they used to. Charolais is my breed of choice, believe in them completely whether it is crosses or purebreds.  I do know that in Texas the good charolais cross steers that wil slick bring real good money and that a moderate framed pb that could sire those steers would also be worth a ton. Personally I prefer more grow in my cattle than most jockeys want, but don't intend to be hard headed, don't want a murrey grey, just to raise and sell real good charolais show steers and crosss heifers.   

 

[Mark H]

JY,

No nerve hit here.  Just sayin' that if you what a smokey easy calving bull that is small framed they are a logical choice.  By the way A Murray Grey Char cross come out smokey as well. 
Just remember plenty of Charolais bulls exist that can work here; no need to fall into the inbreeding/genetic defect trap here.

 

[ds]

Mark.

I am new so I am just getting use to the conversations on here and am learning it is more about the Show Steer industry and less about the raising of beef.  Being a commercial cattleman myself I tend to not worry to much about the show ring. But I am pretty up on the Charolais industry in Canada. I need and am looking for the pounds and performance from my Charolais bulls not the show ring stuff. I had a Freedom from Dory for one year and I shipped him. My red angus heifer bull had more performance. Maybe it was just a bad bull so i shouldnt be so hard on Freedom (there are lots around) but i dislike the bull.

It was a Transcon Sale that I was referring too in Olds the middle of November. But I got a card from the breeder of those calves and it has a website link on it. I checked it out and it looks like they have some updated photos and a few more heifer calves which they did not sell and of course didnt bring to the sale. The website is www.circlecee.com and I think the calves were on the Show page. When I discussed the Revelation bull calf with the guys, they told me they had a deal pending. He was an absolute tank - I would have loved to own him. He was certainly the talk of the barn. It was an awful day for a sale and it hurt the prices but the Revelation heifer calf they sold still brought $4500. The guy did say that he was a new outcross pedigree to Canada and they bred him to their big cows. He said he from what he heard if you used him on the smaller framed, lower performance cattle (freedoms) that cross probably wouldnt work well as he didnt have the performance of some of the other herdsires they used. Nice guys, I am going to check out their bull pen in the New Year. I dont know if you know about the leptin gene - but these guys own alot of bulls who are TT. I think that is something I need to get into a little more.

Watch the Sparrow bulls. He has a barn burner of a sale every year but my experience is he has a really pretty set of cows and uses some pretty rough Cobb bulls and such on them. The resulting bulls are pretty nice to look at but they dont seem to breed true. i am sure some are better then others. I had a son of Sanchez and he just didnt have a consistent group of calves at all. Some really good steers, some average steers and just as many below average steers. Everyone in Canada in the breed used him but know no one does - nothing at any sale or show this year I saw. I like the Fargo bull Wells bought from South Dakota. But I didnt see any calves this fall from him either and there was a few big breeders who used him.

As far as the Show Steer deal - probably not the best guy to ask. All I know is I get paid by the pound and my silver calves this fall made me money.

Hey SJC, gotta call you on this one. How can you have calves out of a Sanchez son when Sanchez was born on Jan 23, 2007. His first possible calves were born in 2009 and were yearling bulls at the bull sales last spring(2010). The first possible calves out of any Sanchez sons are just being born now. It is impossible you have weaned a group of calves out of a Sanchez son! Makes me question everything you have posted previously.

 

[JY]

Mark H,

I did not explain that the reason for wanting a good pb for club calves is to use on black exotic cows to get smokies. The market down here for blacks is not close to the char crosses, For most people trying toi raise steers. Also you can eliminate having to worry about the sire carrying PHA or TH. Just have always thought FR31 would work but have never tried hard enough to locate semen if there is any.

 

[Mark H]

If you want semen out of Nutmegs Avignon F31 try talking to the last guy that registered a calf out of him: Ben Schnuelle. http://www.schnuelleranch.com/Home_Page.php.
The Sandmeier's at Bowdle, SD believe in this bull and still keep the bloodline alive: http://www.sandmeiercharolais.com/herdsires.htm.  See the last bull on the page.

 

[sjc]

Sjd
I checked the papers and you are absolutely right. Wrong bull I never had a Sanchez son. I should get my facts straight before I spout off on a bull. I have struck a nerve with some breeders and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to run anyones cattle down just give my personal opinion. I dislike Freedom no secret there. But I admit there was some decent females around. Its just an opinion guys I am not personally attacking anyone.

 

[Dory Gerrard]

SJC

In an earlier private mesage I offered you a refund on the bull you claim to have purchased from us, but as I said this we have no record of selling any bulls in the area you say you are from and never replied to claim your refund. Have you actually purchased a bull from us or is that another fact you didn't get straight.

Dory Gerrard
Gerrrard Cattle Company

 

[ds]

Sjd
I checked the papers and you are absolutely right. Wrong bull I never had a Sanchez son. I should get my facts straight before I spout off on a bull. I have struck a nerve with some breeders and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to run anyones cattle down just give my personal opinion. I dislike Freedom no secret there. But I admit there was some decent females around. Its just an opinion guys I am not personally attacking anyone.

sjc,
Giving personal opinions on peoples cattle based on sincerity  & honesty is what these type of boards are about. Whether they be positive or negative experiences, as long as they are based on integrity. Posting comments on a public forum which are lies about using sons of bulls that aren't even old enough to have sons siring calves as well as fabricating stories that you have bought bulls from certain breeders which are untrue is what hits a nerve with breeders.

 

[sjc]

Dory

Don't know what you are talking about a private message? Anyway your bull did the job - he bred the cows. I never said he didn't. His calves just didn't perform in the fall like I had hoped for. If you look back I said I might have been a little hard on Freedom given that I had one calf from him.

Again I am not looking for a hand out. That's not fair to you or anybody else. I never meant for the comment to offend you or your reputation. I don't like Freedom - so what. That being said if someone wants to use him to raise show steers he is probably a good choice.I apologize again if you think my rant about Freedom was personal - it wasnt