Flushing: Conclusion and Advice needed

[Show Heifer]

Here is the scenario:
  Flushed two cows to 4 different bulls
  Same placed flushed both cows
  Had 4  different certified embryo techs put them in
  Two different recep herds
      One of those herds (which put in most of the embryos) has over a 65-73% conception rate on over 700 head  and 11 years time.
  Embryos were placed in two different years
  Embryos I bought stored in same tank were 7-10 conception rate.

Number of embryos put in: 38
Number of pregnancies: 3 (same flush)

What is the problem? What, if anything, should I check? I have 4-6 embryos left. Should I just thrown them at the ground? Or waste more money trying to get them to stick?

 

[braunvieh]

The place you had the cows flushed, have you used them before and had good luck or was this the first time you had used them. Am wondering if there was an issue with procedure used in flushing and/or freezing.

Sorry for your bad luck. What a bummer.

 

[cowman 52]

Had nearly 35 years at E T  never have figured out all the up's & downs--
#1  MINERAL PROGRAM find what you need and stay with it
Not real big on having several different tech's doing the work-  find one you can talk to and use him as often as possible
  WE have had an over abundance of false heats this year-- maybe the cows don't like Obama  but mother nature is more fickle than 3 ex wives put together
  Keep going it can only get better

 

[Freddy]

First yellow  flag I see is too many different people doing it, get a guy that works an he will proably have some answers for you if things don't go right.  If he is any good he won't let this happen, cause he wants your business , an if he does good job you will be back .  I expect more out of my mineral than if I was just using commercial cow;s an that is from experience AI-ing an learning to watch fluid ,  some  eggs are asorbed after passing over 22 to 35 days, an good mineral will check this , not puahing any certain mineral company but it would have ALBION  chelates in it or I wouldn't even look at it , an my technican that put's egg's in an collects them feels the same way.  But that's our opinion an every one has one.

 

[Show Heifer]

First off, thanks for the replys. I appreciate the ideas.
THe recep herd is on VitaFerm Breeder Aid mineral 365 days a year. Nutrition is tops. Like I said, the recep herd usually is in the 68-73% conception on embryos (we talking hundreds of embryos a year and they have done it the last 13 years)
I used so many techs due to location and timing. Most of the eggs were put in by two techs. Both in the above recep herd. So I do not believe the problem is in the recep herd.

 

[Jill]

If the problem isn't in the recip herd, the only thing left is a problem with the flush.  Don't give up, we actually have better conception rates on our embryo's then we do on AI, we use our own cattle and set them all up here, you might try putting some into your own cows and see if you have better luck that way.  I have never heard of anyone having THAT much bad luck, there has to be something wrong.

 

[justintime]

I agree that this set of circumstances does seem to be a little unusual. The one thing I have figured out about ET is that it can have a real way to keep you humble. I have had variations of success, and I have not been able to determine any reasons for these differences in success.

One thing I am becoming more convinced, that may be affecting our ET pregnancy rates is changing the nutrition of the recip during the first first 35-40 days from implantation. I have been playing around with ET for many years. After a few years of very mixed up results, I walked away from it completely until about 7 years ago. Since then, we have had real variations in success rates. The first year I implanted 18 embryos, had 17 pregnancies and ended up with 18 heifer calves as the first one to calve had identical twin heifers which resulted from the embryos splitting after implantation. The second year, our success was again good but nothing like the previous year. Since then, I have had a wide range of success and near disasters.

I have seen some research reports that indicate that the recip should be maintained on the same ration for a considerable period of time after the embryo is implanted. This year I implanted a little later than I have been doing, so that the recips could be run on grass well before the embryos are implanted and then put back onto the same pastures immediately following. It is too early to tell yet, but so far we have seen 6 recips return from 32 embryos implanted. Most have just passed the third cycle time period so I am hopeful most are safe now.

In your case, it does not seem that there is any issues with the recips... at least from the information you have given on them. If they are having good luck with embryos from other people, then it would seem to be an embryo issue, but that should be picked up prior to implantation by whoever is doing the implantation. I hope you can figure out what is going on, as this gets rather expensive when you don't get much in returns. Good luck!

 

[Show Heifer]

justintime: How would the tech pick up on problems with the embryo before implanting? Ours in this area (and from what hear, elsewhere also) do not even check the embryos anymore.
Is this not correct? None of the four I used even look at the embryo. They look at the straw and the paper if you have it.
Does your tech do it differently?

I have some straws I am going to sacrifice and check to see what is going on in those straws... I guess it isn't wasting an embryo if the darn thing won't stick anyway. Actually it will save me implanting money!!

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

The one thing that many people over look is the age and history of the donor cow. I see alot of people flushing "old grandma" because she was a good cow back in the day. I know of several old cows that won't breed that are being flushed. I'm nowhere near an authority on this subject but there is a dirrect correlation between the "strength" of these cows embrios compared to those of younger cows that are in their prime. They may appear to be #1's at flushing but they may not have the fortitude of the others at implanting. This may not be 100% acrossed the board as I am sure there are old cows that flush excellent eggs but there is/can be a correlation, something to think about. ET is an excellent way to propagate a particular cows genetics but if she is older than the hills and/or hasn't had a natural calf after being exposed for two or three years you're rolling the dice against mother nature. I still stand by a statement that I have made many, many times - a donor cow should be from the very elite, top of the breed/herd, otherwise you are just flushing another cow and propagating average genetics. I have kind of wandered off topic here a little and I have had some train wrecks in the ET program myself. So to get back on topic - 1- evaluate the age and breeding history of the donor cow  2 - Are the recips that are being used heifers, cows that didn't take an embryo the first time and are they geneticall maternal. 3 - Consider the integrity of the tech doing the implanting, if he doesn't care what he shoots in a recip is he really worth paying for his service. RW

 

[Show Heifer]

RW: Excellent points.
1.  The cow I flushed was older. She had carried a calf EVERY YEAR, and I kept her open to flush her.She was NOT one of those "heck, she didn't breed, lets flush her" deals, nor was she a "here is open cow ready to flush" at a sale!  She bred back (didn't stick AI 21 days after flush) but bred to bull 21 days after that. Her heifers have calved consistently, and at 24 months of age.  But, this is her last hoorah, as her udder is bad and her milk production has dropped to nothing. I guess I will never know how she would produce except for the 3 that stuck. (I had sold all her heifers up to this point..... never intended too, the offers were just too good to pass up!)
2. Actually I have an "in" at the recep herd and they only used cows that had accepted embryos the year before. But, in their many years of doing this, they have found no correlation in cows that accept an embryo and those that do not in any given year. Meaning, just because a cow accepts an embryo one year, does n't increase her chances of accepting an embryo the next year, or any time after that.
3. I doubt if 4 techs would screw me over. Nor would I think it was personal since during the exact same day, the tech used the same cows, different embryos and got 70%. These techs have been in business for years and I would think that if they had been in business for a long time, they know what they are doing..... of course maybe 4 of them got in ka-hoots over the course of 2-3 years and decided to rip me off.
Any tech I have called do not "grade embryos" before they implant them. They read the straw and the paper that has the information in it. And I talked to some "big boys" in the business. Has anyone put in embryos recently and had them thraw the embryo and look at it before implanting? They depend on who flushed the cow for quality and honesty when reporting what is in the straw. 

Probably not clear in my orginal post, but 3 of the embryo's did stick, and they were out of the same cow a majority of the embryos were from.

Thanks for the  investigation  points RW.  I am still looking.....

 

[Reload]

Could weather be to blame?  Were the embryos implanted before a very hot spell?  I know the heat in the midwest a few weeks ago knocked out alot of pregnancies during conception and implantation time.