Flushing Problems

[RSC]

For ITK -- just so every one knows -- the center you mentioned in SW Ne was probably the Curtis Ne place. Unfortunately -- I haven't had the pleasure of doing any owrk for you folks.

SRU-- hey bub -- thanks for the comment. That "Other" cow was carrying a dead fetus for a year when we were finally contacted, it was kind of mind boggling how she was never diagnosed correctly. However, we got the dumb thing out, cleaned her up -- actually flushed her within 45 days and she bred back and calved!!! on her first het after! I was really happy for them, she only had 4 embryos on that flush, but they were good!

Any way -- as far as not getting any eggs the first time out -- that IS unusual but it happens. Some times the timing of the shot sequence was off a day or two -- and then they will not work. I know Dr. Gray -- he's been around the horn a few times so if you give him time, eventually they will get you sometihng. Happens here a little too -- especially if the cow comes in after they had seen the heat -- we use a special nutritional program here and it takes a while for them to get acclimated. Lots of donors are being done right out of the pasture or lot, with no care before they get here. Not always the best thing!

Best of luck -- keep your chin up -- most donors will work if given a chance. Keep in mind -- LARGE doses are not the answer -- I know lots of folks in this business, some just think big is better -- I do not. Thus the 31 egg flush -- and then -0- -- they will pay you back -- sooner or later!

Terry

Terry,  We have a flush that was done at Prefered Genetics, 15 good embryos.  We have put in 8 so far and have had 6 live calves.  So this flush so far looks to bee good embryos for a descent sized flush.  Who knows, probably go 1 or 2 for 7 on the next 7 embryos.

Terry,  when I get closer to the time she needs to be flushed, I will be calling as I think you can help with a cow that I have had a dificult time with.

Thanks,


RSC

 

[Jill]

Ok, got our final report and these cows are a good example of how different a flush can be.  The cows we flushed were Black Dice X Vegas so they would be 1/2 blood shorthorns, they are full flushmate sisters, both handled the same way.  They were both given the same dosage of drugs, the one had a huge heat and we bred the 3 times, the 2nd one never had a single jump, we bred the 2 times and stopped, when we flushed her patch was still grey.  The cow with the huge heat had 6 fertile out of 48, the no heat had 15 fertile out of 22, prior to this 13 fertile is the most we have ever had on a flush and our normal is 8-12.  I guess what I'm saying is don't give up hope, each flush is different.

 

[kanshow]

Jill - Congratulations...I'd be pleased with that result.    Was there any difference in body condition?  calving date?   

We are getting ours in next week to start the process and I'm a little concerned about one being too thin.  She is a first calf heifer with a big calf at side... 

 

[Jill]

These are both in really good condition, neither had a calf this year, they were both held to flush.  I'm by no means an expert, but what we have found is that if they are on a really good mineral program you usually end up ok.  The condition really comes in to play more on the recip side of the equation, IMO they need to be in premium condition to maximize conception rates.  We are extrememly please, we expected a 0 out of the one with no heat.

 

[Cowboy]

Jill, if I read your post correctly -- did you say they had you breed them 3 times??

If so, when was your FIRST service done as far as timing from first standing??

Over the years and thousands of cows, I have noticed alot. One thing that stands out to me is the timing of the breeding. When you first go in and breed the cow, by simply handing the tract to get her bred will release a fairly good amount of Oxytocin. This contracts the uterus and sets it up for transport of the semen -- the same thing happens when the bulls breeds the cow -- the forward motion of the process will MOVE the tract around, and the release takes place. That is good -- but only ONCE. Because the bull will tend ot breed them several times all at once, it most likely is still OK, but if we breed themn 6-12 hours apart -- that tends to be the problem.

Secondary releases can be and most likely are detrimental to most cows. To achieve a flush of 48 eggs, and then after three breedings only get 6 of them - to me -- would be extrememly frustrating. I quit breeding more than one time many years ago, the results are just so apparent that - here at least - I see no reason to ever go back for a second breeding if the first one is done at the right time. Any one that knows me, will attest to the fact that it is not at all unusual to see me out breeding a donor at 1-2 in the morning. Sure it takes some time and may be inconvenient some times during a rain storm or whatever -- but the cow wi;; tell you when she is ready, and I listen! hehehe

Again I congratualte you on getting embryos -- especially the one who never showed a heat - that does happen, but very rarely. I think the one with 48 eggs may need to be down-dosed next time for sure -- she is probably really sensitive to the drug.

I won't try and tell you what to do with your donors, not ever  -- but it would be very hard on me here -- with GOOD semen, to get that many unfertilized eggs from one cow. Meybe I just get lucky, but I do tihnk there is alot more to it.

I also agree- nutrition is EVERYTHING after timing. We feed only Vita-Ferm Concept-Aid to the donors, it takes a little while to get them up to par -- but it flat works!

Good job all in all!

Terry

 

[Jill]

Cross Country has always had us breed 3 times (they also do at their facility).  In this case she was in at the 1st option time (AM) so we bred 1st sign of heat, 12 hours later and 12 hours after that. For the one that we didn't see signs she was in in AM so we breed PM,  and 12 hours later, didn't breed the 3rd time since no heat signs, I don't know the reasons, just follow instruction, we'll have to ask why they do that.

 

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

Hi everyone,

I've never had a flush done a cow before, and was wondering how much the whole entire cost can be once it's all said, and done if it's done on the farm. 

Thanks

SJ

 

[Jill]

When they do the flush at my house it is:
Collection Fee-350
Freezing-400 per day  at their facility this cost is 150
Transfer Fee-50/embryo
Mileage-they charge a fee per mile but I can't remember what that figure was
We normally just take the donors to them to be flushed.

 

[garybob]

Would 6 grade ones, 8 two's, and (we threw away the three's) from an 1150-pound registered Shorthorn cow (that had been treated like a commercial cow  for all 13 yearsof her life) be considered "acceptable"?

Flushed her to Dunbeacon Venture. Hoping for heifers, but, We'll take a high-maternal "sire candidate" if that's what we get.

GB

 

[BCCC]

Thats 14 embroys from a 13 year old  cow that hadn't been treated GREAT, I would so that is a very good flush (thumbsup)

 

[garybob]

Thats 14 embroys from a 13 year old  cow that hadn't been treated GREAT, I would so that is a very good flush (thumbsup)

My point is, people say they don't get good experince with Shorthorns via ET. My point is, let's look at the pedigrees of those "problem" Donor Cows. Brian Banzet can tell you more about her, since he owns her, but, this particular donor has NONE of the popular show-cattle producing sire lines in her pedigree. NONE. And, she flushed just fine. She has eaten nothing but Fescue &Bermudagrass her whole life. The only fertility drugs she's ever had were for this Flush. She's calved every year, on time, since being 21 months old.

Thanks for the "thumbs up".

GB

 

[justintime]

GaryBob..... 14 grade 1 and 2 embryos from a cow of any breed, raised in any conditions ........is a very good flush. I am told that 6 - 8  is a good flush average in any breed. Of course there are cows in all breeds that do better... there are cows in any breed that do less. Most cows in any breed can usually be tweeked to get good results. The real trick is to find a cow that does well time in and time out. I have heard of poor ET cows in every breed. For some reason, some just don't work. I doubt if it has anything to do with the genetics of the cow. As I said in a previous post, sometimes it is a cow that is not very fertile in the pasture that makes a great donor. You can select what appears to be the most feminine, most fertile, best milking, best moma cow in your herd, and you will not know for sure if she is a good donor or not until you have flushed her a few times. There is so much work being done now that ET is becoming better understood, which is resulting in better flushes. That said, sometimes it can drive you crazy trying to make sense out of your results.

 

[Cowboy]

JIT -- you are as close to being "Perfectly" correct as yu can be!! I totally agree.

We have a fullblook Fleckvieh cow here -- who just weaned her calf form last fall a few weeks ago. She was here 2 years ago as well, we did her 3 times then, froze 56 embryos on those three flushes, with me trying every time to get her to go DOWN in numbers. She never really did, and we never really had any problems with UFO or bad eggs, I always bred her 1 time as I described above.

We just flushed this cow again yesterday for the 2 nd time this calving period. She had 22 the first time with 19 frozen. I erduced her 15% from that (Small to start with) and yesterday -- she not only did not go down, she went UP. Using a 1/2 ml Amp frozen in 1969 in Europe (Not scored, so had to file it -- then pull it up into 2 - 1/4 ml straws to make sure it all got in the cow) I bred her at 1-30 in the morning, that was simply HER time bases on how she acted.

She had 33 total eggs yesterday, there was 1 unfertile (bummer) - 2 degenerates, 2 #3 eggs I discarded, and I froze 28 total. 25 #1, 3 #2 .

This is simply further the thoughts I have on breeding thesed donors. If you have excellent semen, give the cow TIME to go out of heat and relax for a few hours (6) after wards, I see absolutely NO reason to ever breed one twice! Timng is of course absolutely imperrative -- so if the closing bell rings at 5 PM - you won't get along with one time breed ing at all!

I do love this business, it just makes me mad as all heck to think I wasted a ton of semen over the years early on trying to do it right, when instead I was actually cusing more problems. I know most of you would say I am full of fertilizer, but I swear, I breed these cows one time, and give them plenty of time to get done -- and I DO horn breed -- 1.5 or 2 inches up the horn if you are comfortable and she is quiet and easily bred -- dump it and go to the next one -- I use 2 units if available, if not, I split it between the horns.

I wish every one a great year flushing thier cows -- it is still -- after almost 27 years -- a real RUSH to get done and come in to look for the eggs. I still get excited seeing that first little round baby!! eheheh - Ah well, Juli called me the last Romantic once, meybe she was right!

Terry

 

[aj]

We have had problems flushing the toliet here in the basement.We used a product called roots be gone. It seemed to help alot. (thumbsup)