frame score

[Dale]

Is anyone else not comfortable with the smaller frame size in bulls?  There are several people who are enthused about bulls with mature hip heights of 52".  I understand using a "tool bull" A.I to add rib, fleshing ability, etc.  The concern  is having cows that are several inches taller than the bull in the pasture.

One cattleman once told me to breed cows that are 54-56" and I would never be wrong--that was considered middle of the road.  Now the pendulum has swung so far that I have heard of smaller bulls falling off the cows.  One leading breeder had a bull that he said he would use if the bull could reach his cows.  Does anyone remember "pitting cows" so the bull could consummate the marriage?

There is a saying that one extreme follows another in the weather.  Will the type swing back toward taller cattle even if it is in the next decade?  The last time we had 48" cows, the promoters said to use their taller bulls to get the cows up out of the mud.   

If you breed a frame 3 bull to a frame 7 cow, how consistent will the offspring breed?

What frame score bulls do you like and what is the frame score of your cows?

 

[red]

Good topic Dale!
For those of you that don't know how to figure frame score here are the following formulas.

A hip height measurement can be converted to a frame score if the animal's age is known. Frame scores can be approximated from "height for age" frame score tables or calculated by mathematical formulas. Separate charts and formulas exist for bulls and heifers due to differing rates of skeletal growth between sexes. Beef Improvement Federation frame score charts and calculation formulas are presented in Table 2. As an example of determining a frame score, a bull measuring 48 inches at 330 days of age would be estimated to be about a frame score 5 from the chart or calculated to have a frame score of 4.98 by the formula. [-11.548 + (.4878 * 48) - (.0289 * 330) + (.0000947 * 330 * 330) + (.0000334 * 48 * 330)] = 4.98. Several beef cattle breed associations have developed their own frame score formulas and charts which are based on average growth and development within their specific breed and vary slightly from BIF calculations.

Frame score run between 1-9

for more information go to:http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm

 

[red]

My cattle typicaly run large. My big red cow is probably a 7-8 frame score. The rest average about a 6-7. I try to breed to bulls that will compliment their frame score. I usually try to downsize my red cow, that's why I used Money Man this year on her & several others. I am seeing a trend though in my own cattle that they are getting a little smaller in frame.
Don't believe I'd ever use a bull that couldn't reach the cows although some of TJ's cattle look rather good! I do notice that the trend in cattle for shows can really fluctuate from year to year.

Red

 

[TJ]

Is anyone else not comfortable with the smaller frame size in bulls?  There are several people who are enthused about bulls with mature hip heights of 52".  I understand using a "tool bull" A.I to add rib, fleshing ability, etc.  The concern  is having cows that are several inches taller than the bull in the pasture.

One cattleman once told me to breed cows that are 54-56" and I would never be wrong--that was considered middle of the road.  Now the pendulum has swung so far that I have heard of smaller bulls falling off the cows.  One leading breeder had a bull that he said he would use if the bull could reach his cows.  Does anyone remember "pitting cows" so the bull could consummate the marriage?

There is a saying that one extreme follows another in the weather.  Will the type swing back toward taller cattle even if it is in the next decade?  The last time we had 48" cows, the promoters said to use their taller bulls to get the cows up out of the mud.     

If you breed a frame 3 bull to a frame 7 cow, how consistent will the offspring breed?

What frame score bulls do you like and what is the frame score of your cows?

I'm perfectly comfortable with it!!    ;D  But, I am sure that several aren't. 

IMHO, there will always be some frame 7-8 cattle & there will always be some frame 3-4 cattle.   I don't know that either is wrong in certain situations. 

Personally, we've had plenty of frame 7-8 Chi X Angus females, frame 7 Sim X Angus females & frame 7 Tarentaise X Angus females & I don't want anymore frame 7+ anything.  My neighbors have had frame 7 Tarentaise, Saler, Angus, Red Angus, Blonde De'Aquataine, etc. & they have gone more towards smaller cows too.  Actually, nobiody around here that I can think of has frame 7 cows... they just don't work as well in the commercial world around here unless you own a feed truck & a feed mill.  But, that is just me & my opinion.   

As far as breeding small bulls to bigger females... well, my partner bred a 45 inch tall Lowline bull to 1900-2000+ lb. frame 7+ Angus naturally, on flat ground in Northcentral Indinia & never had a problem or had to build any pits (but the bull had experience breeding smaller cows & already knew how to do the job).  So, if a 52 inch tall bull has some experience breeding, he should be able to figure out how to breed bigger cows.  My dad also had a 47 inch tall yearling Taretaise bull a few years back, with no experience, that sucessfully bred some big frame 7 cows, despite the fact that nobody ever saw him actually breed a single one, but very few were returning to heat & he stuck over 80% of the herd in a 45 day window before a clean up bull was put in.  But, I will agree, inexperience smaller bull could potentially have problems.  I've always heard the saying, "were there is a will, there is a way" & that is especially true with breeding!   

RE extremes... you are correct... but, IMHO, frame 7+ cattle are extreme.  I also think that frame 3- cattle are extreme.  Honestly, my ideal cow is a frame 4 - 5.5 cow that weighs 1100-1300 lbs.  & one that weans 550-700 lb calves, on grass & without creep.  In a perfect world, I'd want a 4-5 frame female that weighs 1100 to 1250 lbs. & weans 600+ lb. calves & I think that I can do that.         

I don't know what "the promoters said" RE the mud, but I live in west KY in an area of the US that is as muddy as anywhere!!  We live 90 miles east of the Mississippi river, 5 miles south of the Ohio, about 50 miles east of the largest man made lake in the US & about 45 miles east of another huge man made lake, so we ususally get lot of rainfall each year.  Plus, we live far enough north that the ground freezes for a few days, but we live far enough south that it thaws for a few days & we have major mud problems here!  However, I've yet to see it bad enough around here that a 48 inch tall animal could not overcome.  Of course, it all depends upon how you manage them... if you are forced to confine them in small lots for periods of time, yes, that could be a problem for any animal.

However, the big sales pitch that I heard was... "breed big bull to a smaller small cow & produce a heavy calf".   

Forgive my spelling, I know it is awful, but I am in a hurry & got to go do something... I'll fix it later...

 

[justintime]

I have some concerns with the trend to smaller bulls. I do agree that sometimes, you can use a smaller framed bull to add some fleshing ability, or other traits, but I do get concerned as to where we are all planning on going if everyone heads in this direction. I have no problem of using a smaller framed bull if you want to downsize your mature weights, and frame scores, in your cowherd. There are still lots of cows that are too big and are not even close to being effiecient. Like almost everything in life, too much or too little of anything usually doesn't work. Optimum is usually a good place to be.

My fear, is that I have been here before. I am old enough to remember the small framed cattle and I remember very well the discounts we used to get from the packers. This is not to say that there is not a place in the beef industry for cattle like TJ's . There certainly is a place for these cattle, and they may be perfect for your farm or your conditions. They are very efficient producers of beef, but I have not seen any market indicators that suggest we should be all heading in that direction. The feedlot managers I talk with, all want cattle that they can put a bunch of pounds on. They want feeders that they can add 500 to 600 or even 700 lbs from the weights they are purchased at. Our packers here, actually have removed some of the discounts for larger carcasses. They still have major discounts if they get too big, but they have removed the discounts they used to have for carcasses between about 715 to 800 lb. I think we need to try to produce cattle that the feeders and packers want, as they carry a pretty big stick, and they can literally destroy you if you don't raise  something they want. I used to feed cattle and I used to be a cattle buyer. I used to sit at the feeder sales and watch the buyers ruthously steal cattle that did not fit the norm of the day. I saw literal licenced theft, and I thought it was wrong then, and still do. I used to buy lots of those "off" cattle that were smaller, shorter, frozen ears, etc, and they always made me more money than the so called " good" feeders. The reason these cattle worked so well, was simply because they could be bought so cheap.

I usually get nervous, when I see the show ring start to dictate that we head too far in any direction. It has done it to us in the past, and it was not based on anything other than fads, and was not industry initiated. I also know from being in this business for a few years now, that it seems to be much easier to get your cattle smaller thna it is to get them bigger. I get a little concerned when we have people telling us what we should be raising, who have never sold an animal on the rail, or had to deal with a set of hard nosed cattle buyers.

I am using some herd bulls now that are smaller framed than some I have used in the past. I have concerns though, about using a mature herd bull that is no bigger than a finished steer that meets all the packer demands. I don't have too many problems with using a smaller framed bull in your herd to help get you get to your goals quicker, but I would start to be concerned if we all start stacking some of these bulls , one after another in our cow herds pedigrees.

Everything in this business, comes back to the real world eventually. If the feed lot and packer buyers start to see too many cattle showing up that don't fit into their " ideal " model. they simply start adding discounts that can eliminate every cent of profit from the cattle who don't fit. You may never have to sell any of your cattle to these guys, except for some cull cows, but they can still bite you in the butt. Remember the Golden Rule....." the people with the most Gold, usually make the rules."

 

[DLD]

With corn (and thus all feed grain) prices rising, I think we're going to see more demand for easier fleshing cattle. Easier fleshing pretty much always goes with moderate frame. I really don't think we're going to see any demand for increased frame size in feeder cattle any time in the forseeable future.

Everyone acts like smaller cattle win more in Oklahoma and Texas than up in the midwest, but I really don't see a problem with the average sized show cattle down here. The winners and the average steer in the barn are plenty big enough to hang 800# carcasses - if the packers have a complaint about carcass weight, it's usually too big, not too small.

My average sized cow probably frame scores right at 6, and that's about where the bulls we use are, too. I've AI'd to many of the bulls often thought of as small, but never had any problem with calves being too small...

There's no such thing as one right sized cow for everybody everywhere. Enviroment and management practices dictate what works in each situation. It takes different kind of cows to get along in western Oklahoma wintering on dry grass and protein supplements and running on native grass pastures the rest of the year than it does in Iowa where they're wintered on corn stalks and run on improved grasses the rest of the year (I know those aren't everyone's management practices in those places, just an example). Raise the kind of cattle that work for you, that's the bottom line.

David

 

[knabe]

red, money man is at least heterozygous for the 3 tenderness genes, yeah, i know, no one cares.

 

[knabe]

and, just for grins, here is a 14 star bull, Bar R 12P Takazakura

i'd call him high flanked, but better than some of the other one's on that page.

http://www.lonemountaincattle.com/ourherd.html

 

[red]

no Knabe, that's good to know for sale purposes. Especially if I get any bulls next year. Thanks!

Red

 

[Jill]

I think we need to stay away from the extremes, the lowlines are a niche market and they have their place, but it isn't where I think we need to head.  In our cow herd, the cows that are around the 10 year mark are in the 7 range and up, and the average for our herd is probably right at 6, I can tell you with the price of hay and corn our 7's all but a very few have been culled, it just takes too much to keep them in good condition.  I don't have an issue AIing to a 52" bull, we look for that size with our big donor cow because she needs downsized, but I don't think I would go back with another 52 on the resulting calves, a frame score 6 to me is a nice size cow that still have enough size to be a productive cow, I don't want 50 pound calves, they need to be able to calve out the clubbies for them to work in my recip program and frame size is part of that.  I can say when I am purchasing a clean up bull, I want one that will be big enough to cover my cows without injury and the 52"er is not what I would purchase.  Good topic, lots of differences in opinions on this one.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

As I have stated on previous posts, I like my cattle a little bigger than alot of you. My herd bulls will range from a 6 to 7.5 frame score and my cows will average about 6.5. I realize that my type of cattle do not fit every program or enviroment, but they work well here and produce calves that hit our market as far as sales as yearlings. Our typical bull customer wants a 6.5 to 7 frame score bull, the 5 to 6 frame score bulls are always the last to go. I think every body has to breed for their market and enviroment, but a 50" bull would be a "mini me" for my herd.

 

[TJ]

A few things..

1st, I agree 100% that a fullblood Lowline is a niche market only animal.  They are an extreme, just like their opposite, the Fullblood Chi's of the 1970's & early 80's. 

However, I totally disagree that a 1/2 blood Lowline is a niche market animal only.  If percentage Chi's can be used with success, then a low percentage Lowline can be used with success also & the low percentage Lowline, IMHO, probably has more to offer. 

More to the point... back in February, I sold a 1/2 blood Lowline X Tarentiase steer at a special feeder sale.  That animal weighed just under 700 lbs. & grossed just under $750.  Facts are facts, you can be as critical as you want, but you can't honestly tell me that particular steer calf didn't make me money & it was marketed the "traditional way".  He wasn't creep fed & his total feed bill was very minimal because he was only on feed a short period of time.  Now factor in that I am able to produce & have so far produced 100% live calf crops, as are many other breeders that I know who are crossing them have been doing for 3-5 years, & you do the math.  No C-sections, no Vet visits to assist the cattle... they are low input cattle, but able to produce a pretty decent amount of money.  My other 1/2 blood steers were not marketed the traditional way &  I can make even more money selling them as finished beef!  I even kept one 1/2 blood as a bull... he passed his BSE @ 11 months.  At 15 months, he will weigh 1000+ lbs. on a high roughage ration with minimal supplemental feed, with a 38cm scrotal @ approx. 47 inches tall.  Not to mention that he has as more natural thickness than the of the other "full sized" bulls.  Anyway, I've had commercial people from South Dakota, Missouri, Virginia, Indiana, Illinois & Kentucky, many of whom didn't know anything about my Lowlines or F1's beforehand, & all them, except one person (And I think that he didn't want to admit it), told me that they were actually "surprised" & that the crosses "were better than they had expected".

Also, don't take my word about Lowline F1's... contact North Dakota State Dickerson's research center & ask them about their 3 year trial using Lowline bulls on regular sized commercial heifers, with them taking the steer calves all the way to the rail. 

Now RE the feedlot owners... IMHO, the quickest way to lose money in the cattle business is to get tunnel vision & focus only on what the feedlots want.  I don't think that you can totally forget about them, but they absolutely don't care if your cost to run a cow per year is $400+.  Anyway, we tried doing exactly what the feedlots wanted back in the 80's & IMHO, it was a mistake.  The feedlots LOVED our Chi sired calves & payed a premiuim for them.  The trouble is, you can't keep the heifers in that scenario or you will end up with big cows who will eat you out of house & home & wont wean a calf any bigger than some 5 frame cows.  if you sell all the heifers, you can't turn around & buy good heifers as cheaply as you can raise them yourself.  Anyway, over the course of several years we finally figured out that we could make more money with moderate framed cattle.  Funny thing too, we discovered that some 5 frame cows can weaning 750+ lb. calves out of moderate bulls!   See attached pic below of a low 5 frame cow & her ready to wean calf...

So we went from using frame 7+ Chi's & Simmental's & Limousin bulls & went out & bought a few moderate sized Tarentaise bulls & females along with a small herd of moderate framed Angus cows for cross breeding.  Of course, old habbits are hard to break & some of our our original Tarentaise were frame 7 (but they were for the showring & we planned to breed them down).  Since we went to a more moderate framed cow, we haven't taken any discounts & we aren't feeding as much either.  I can tell you that less is spent on them (pasture rent per head, hay, supplemental feed, etc.), but the calves will make just as much as our frame 7+ calves did out of frame 7 bulls & cows. 

One final thing... for every frame score 7 cow in this county, you will find 25-30 that are under a frame score 6.  Other areas are likely different, but a frame score 5 is what everybody around here seems to like.   

I've been around both extreme's, moderates, show calves, commercial calves going to sale barns, calves sold in pot loads to the feedlots, sold on satelite auctions, backgorunded on feed, backgrounded on wheat pasture or grass, etc, & all points in between & based on all that previous experience, 4 & 5 frame cattle is the way that I want to go.  And if we ever hit $5+ corn, it will definately be the way to go!!

What I want to do & am doing, may not be best for everyone else, but it seems to work for me.  If it works, what's wrong with it?  Big cows, little cows, medium cows... all that matter is that it works, IMHO!! 

BTW, I expect critics, my dad was one of the biggest & my brother in-law still is..     

 

       

 

[OH Breeder]

Red can correct me if I am wrong, but in our county show which is every bit as competitive as the state fair we have had winners at 49.5" and 53". In my own herd I have frame score of 4 to 7. I am prepared to meet the markets demands which ever way they swing. Personally, I like the middle of the road moderate 5-6. My favorite club female is Who Made Who out of an angus cow. She is a frame score of 4. She throws them big and they grow big. her calves are usually greater than 51" no matter what the bull.
I use bulls according to the cows frame score- IE: cow 4 frame score -bull 6 frame score and vice versa

I think the demand for corn and in our area the demand for farm ground, smaller framed easy fleshing cattle would meet our market demands. the market will drive our choices. Althought, today I heard an interesting fact, although gasoline is at an all time high, 36% higher than ever before and they expect it to reach $4.00 a gallon, the SUV market has seen higher sales than before. So GO figure. ???

 

[knabe]

another point about bovigen results.  There is only 9 maine animals listed on their public results page.  they claim there are 60,000 results not listed on their site, due to i think a misunderstanding on the release form i think dl mentioned.  i just dug mine out, thinking i had already signed it and will "resend" it.  kind of suprised derouchey's has just one animal listed.  david steen keeps commenting on the carcass quality of the maine's and i would like to see him lead the charge to get breeders to turn in their forms.  it sure would make it a little easier to find sires who excel in this area.  what about american muscle sj?

 

[Jill]

I thought DeRouchey had all his sale bulls tested for a couple of years now, he was kind of one of the leaders in this area in the Maine breed, why would he have only 1 listed?

 

[TJ]

Red can correct me if I am wrong, but in our county show which is every bit as competitive as the state fair we have had winners at 49.5" and 53". In my own herd I have frame score of 4 to 7. I am prepared to meet the markets demands which ever way they swing. Personally, I like the middle of the road moderate 5-6. My favorite club female is Who Made Who out of an angus cow. She is a frame score of 4. She throws them big and they grow big. her calves are usually greater than 51" no matter what the bull.
I use bulls according to the cows frame score- IE: cow 4 frame score -bull 6 frame score and vice versa

I think the demand for corn and in our area the demand for farm ground, smaller framed easy fleshing cattle would meet our market demands. the market will drive our choices. Althought, today I heard an interesting fact, although gasoline is at an all time high, 36% higher than ever before and they expect it to reach $4.00 a gallon, the SUV market has seen higher sales than before. So GO figure. ???

You are right on...  Higher gas prices are forcasted, but more SUV's being sold than ever before & in this area, everybody wants big, 4 door pick up trucks too!!  I just don't see gas dropping anytime soon, especially with so many people buying gas guzzlers... of course, I am one of those people who likes big trucks!   (lol)  

 

 

[TJ]

I thought DeRouchey had all his sale bulls tested for a couple of years now, he was kind of one of the leaders in this area in the Maine breed, why would he have only 1 listed?

I assume the problem is that people aren't signing the release form, like Knabe suggested.  You get your results privately, but to be posted on their website in the "public results" section, you have to sign the release form, just as knabe mentioned.

 

[knabe]

adjusted for inflation, gas is still not at an all time high, that would be in the early 80's and the early 1900's.

http://www.fintrend.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Gasoline_inflation_chart.htm

it's getting close though, but as a percentage of disposable income, it's not even close.  we are living live louis the 14th's and we are complaining, just like he did, rather than open up markets, streamline regulation.  we would rather tax and discourage business and switch to socialism.  jerks.

large framed cattle that aren't fixed remind me of doberman pinscher's when they first started out.  kinda all over the place, unless fixed, ie chi's and even they had some variability, ildeno was relatively moderate for a chi.

 

[justme]

Your right Jill, there catalog had all the results in them for the past 2 years.  I think Rademacher's test too.  I know the bull we had from them had been.

 

[Show Dad]

Frame, hair, breed, color or tenderness: doesn't matter which in the end if it has to taste good or you can forget it. I have seen some really silly things substituted for in the ring that have nothing to do with the plate. I have said it before but when it comes to the ring in the market class how does the particular trait, in this case, frame score, relate to the plate? How does it relate to the breeding class? And how does that impact our operations? I have had steaks from one breed (won't mention it for fear of offending someone) but it was hyped as being from this champ and that winner but honestly tasted flat, no matter how I tried to fix it. BTW, small frame, black color, lots of hair, 3 star tender. Found a small frame, red, short hair, 2 star tender which tasted great. Taste, Taste and more Taste. If the consumer doesn't like it, it won't matter what the cost of corn is.