Grains and why to feed what? Discussion Topic

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NHR

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Okay, over the last couple of years I have heard different things about what different grains will do in the diet of cattle. I just saw a new post about Oats so I wanted to start a post regarding the benefits and negatives of feeding different grains.

For example: (just an example)

Corn = adds fat cover, can also burn the cattle off of feed if fed in large amounts, primary source of fat in steers, be careful feeding to much to heifers.
 

chambero

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I would love for someone to chime in on this. 

Our feed mill's consulting nutritionist has them use a lot of milo in place of corn in our show feed.  Saves us a bunch of money and seems to be working fine.  I've always wondered what I might be missing though or if there are any drawbacks associated with milo.  But milo is in ready supply in our area.  Our show feed (12% protein, 3.5% fat, 16% fiber) runs right at $280 a ton with Zinpro minerals, bovatec, and yeast added.  I used to have a hotter finisher feed mixed, but decided I do better just by adding steam rolled corn by hand.

What is the drawback of using cracked corn vs. steam rolled corn?
 

kanshow

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Good  Topic!

Seems like everyone in my area feeds a lot of corn & not so much milo - wonder if that will change this year?    There used to be more oats in the rations but I'm not seeing that so much.   Oats are pretty expensive around here too.      I'd like to get some barley in our ration but our local elevators don't even want to mess with it, so I'm going to have to drive a bit to get cattle feed.     I also like to keep our ration pretty basic with the idea that if you need something else, you can always add it but you can't take it out. 

Pricing..   most of the rations I've priced are running$350 - 400/Ton bagged.   The difference in the prices mostly reflect the difference in the protien level and premix used to get there.   

Chambero brings up a good point -  What level protien are you feeding heifers?    Steers?      Our heifer ration is 14%
 

sawboss

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Our steers are fed 12% protein and heifers are on 16% ration and we supplement both of these with priobotics.  Our steer feed is currently running $360/ton bagged and contains oats and flaked corn.  I like it better than the commercial feeds we have used the past two years, and the calves have responded well to it.  It does not contain the heavy molasses in it.
 

simtal

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even when corn was cheap, we still fed a significant amount of oats.  we thought that the fat cover on animals was smoother and not as chunky or rough as corn alone. 
 

NHR

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Why or when do you feed oats?

Why or when do you feed barley?
 

sawboss

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We started our calves last year on Barley in late October, one responded well and the other began to bloat.  Chambero lost a calf last year that bloated on Barley and died.  I personally had to remove our Friction steer off of it, even the cooked version would bloat him.  The Shorty ate it like candy with zero problems and had a tremendous finish.  We will probably use it again this year, with a watchful eye for signs of bloat.  Be sure to get the steamed form if you consider using it on a steer.
 

Show Dad

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Our standard feedlot mix is now 60% milo & 40% corn with 100 lbs of molasses per ton. Use to be 60/40 corn/milo then 50/50 and have seen very little difference in out come. Carcasses have not been affected.

For show barley has it's benefits. But the easiest way to get it in your feed is to buy a premix with barley in it. I am trying Honor performix this year. Used Purina Grand 4-T-Fyer last year with good results but lacks the barley.
 

showgirl2010

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What about granola hay?  I hadn't even heard of it until a few weeks ago at my Junior Nationals. 

Jamie
 

GONEWEST

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I'm sure that what I do is a little different because little grain other than corn or wheat is grown anywhere near here. We begin with a base ration that has the same protein/fat/fiber profile as Chambero. Basically it's cotton seed hulls, steamed flaked corn and soybean meal along with what ever else is cheap and makes the minimum nutritional profile work.

Keep in mind that everything mentioned here is said with show calves in mind. I feed each calf individually depending on its body type. Think about it this way...people have all different body types. If we were on diets  trying to end up all with the same body type in a year, each of us would be eating differently in order to end up with the same result. For example we had a Paddy O'Malley heifer last year that only ate oats and beat pulp because she was so easy keeping and had to keep her volume and body depth as low as possible if you can believe that. On top of that she was a chronic bloater, not bad enough to be life threatening, just bad enough that she couldn't eat properly. But this diet kept that in check. The point is all are different.

Steers and heifers up until 8 months are fed protein at a level that keeps them with a comfortably loose stool. In other words, when they get too loose I back off the protein. I try to get at least a pound of pure protein in those 5-8 month old calves if possible. I use soybean meal to do this. Many people use Calf Manna or a similar high protein pellet to raise protein levels, but it's a waste of money in our ration. The base feed has a high quality mineral and vitamin premix, we feed a high priced, high quality vitamin mineral supplement (shag), so there's no reason for anything other than soybean meal. It's highly palatable, and good for the hair and skin. And at current prices I can feed a pound of protein for about 45 or 50 cents a day.  8 months we back the protein down to 16% for heifers and 14% for steers. We also begin adding dry beet pulp at this point at the evening feeding. The reasoning there is that they have been tied up all day and away from water. Immediately after eating they will usually  drink.  Swells them up and teaches them when to drink at the shows. At 13 months we'll back it down to 14% for heifers and 12% for steers unless the steer is  a real hard feeder and we need to start finishing him even earlier. Here our steers are aimed at finishing at 17-19 months. Always back the protein off if they become loose.

We feed MOST heifers  our base ration, 25% oats,  tweaked for protein. I'd be lying to tell you that I know why we do this. Many people will say that you feed oats in heifer rations to keep them from getting fat. Not true. Oats are 4% fat. That's higher than our base ration. We finish steers on a 5% fat ration. Oats aren't going to keep them lean. But it works so that's why I do it.  I do not feed oats to steers, they are too expensive here to be "just another grain."

As a rule of thumb, we begin to feed barley two months out from the show we are trying to peak for. On steers we use our base ration, 25% barley and adjust for protein with SBM. I adjust the ration to 5%fat by using Purina Athlete, a high fat pelleted horse supplement. It's also the "Gold Nugget" found in Purina Show Chow "Finishers Edge". If  heifers  need to be smother or fatter we ad barely and take away the oats. When depends on how much they need. Keep in mind these are show cattle. I'm feeding them to win,  not worrying about getting them too fat. We keep the heifers diet to 4% fat. You can up the fat to 5% for steers by using many products like Fast Fat or even corn oil, but I like "solids" better because they don't cause loose stools as easily. In my experience, these loose stools can come with using liquid supplements before the 5% threshold is reached. More than 5% fat probably will cause loose stools and high fat will prevent the absorption of vitamins and minerals which is key to keeping the freshness of the calf.

Although many people do it,  I could never finish a steer properly without barley. My calves finished on barley  both appear smoother and  feel smother to the touch.  It was explained to me that barley deposits fat subcutaneously (under the skin) while corn deposits fat intramuscularly (in the muscle). I can't figure any scientific fact that would back that up, but it sure SEEMS that is true. Never the less that's a good way to think of it. I have never had a calf to bloat on barley, but obviously others have so it bears watching.

I am in Georgia and the only  barley I can get  comes from western Canada. So it's not cheap. Neither is the Purina Athlete. But it works. One thing that I do have is a cheaper base ration. I am paying $6.75 a bag for it and quality wise it will stand up with any Show Chow, or $14 a bag grower you can find. I realize you can mix your own for less but that is so not practical here. And there are no custom feed mills anywhere near here and those that are within driving distance couldn't make the same feed twice if they had to.

Chambero brought up the question of steamed flaked grains vs. cracked grains. There have been studies  after more studies showing that cracked grains offer as much nutrient absorption as steamed flaked grains. HOWEVER, we are feeding for show calves and trying to get a certain body type. The more "texture" or bulk your feed has, the easier it is to get the shape you want for the show ring. To take that to an extreme, you can get all the nutrition you need from a pelleted feed. But you'll never get the look in your calf you get from a highly textured feed. Always use steamed flaked grains when practical. Here, there is a large price differential between cracked oats and rolled oats. We use cracked oats. It's just not practical to do otherwise. But our feed has so much texture already, it doesn't matter. Another example is that many feed mills here, well there aren't "many feed mills" , but a majority of the ones here are beginning to have pelleted cotton seed hulls due to the ease of handling pelletization provides. That is fine for adding fiber to a diet of a "real world" animal. But it won't work for show cattle because we need bulk and texture in our feed to get the "look" we are aiming for.

It was 1990 and I was 30 years old before I knew that you didn't feed show calves straight out of the bag. How to feed cattle used to be a big secret. I was taught by Knick Overpeck who I consider to be one of the best and most successful professional fitters who ever lived. If Knick were alive today, he would be in his late 70's early 80's. He still holds the  record score for reasons at the national collegiate livestock judging contest.  Besides having a good calf to begin with, "feeding" is the single most important item related to success in the ring. Feeding not only encompasses nutrition, but being able to analyze your animal and knowing what sources of nutrition will get it to the point you are aiming for.
 

NHR

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Gonewest, thanks for the post. This is the kinfd of information I was looking for when I started this thread. Maybe you could email me your base ration formula...
 

shortdawg

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This is our ration and it is one of the most consistent I've fed :

1 Ton of Feed

25 # Mineral

300 # Oats

900 # Corn

300 # Cottonseed Hulls

200 # Soybean Meal or Cottonseed Meal

200 # Molasses

75 # Alfalfa Pellets

 

johndeereboy

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Shortdawg~ Is that ration you stated a steer of heifer ration? 


My local feedmill is about as worthless as possible for trying to give me a steer or heifer ration. They want to make the easiest thing possible. I tried going in one day with a ration that I had gotten from the guy where I had boughten my show steer. They didnt have 1/2 the ingrediants and when they were trying to make up a ration, they had to call another store. Any and all help is appreciated. Thank you
 

chambero

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Here's our "hot" grower ration we use on steers and heifers.  We worked with our local feed mill and their consulting nutritionist.  I told him what general requirements I wanted in the feed and he came up with a ration based on the ingredients our mill can easily work with.  Our mill can't steam roll corn which is my main gripe, so we buy it somewhere else and add by hand when necessary.  We start adding steam-rolled corn by hand pretty early on steers (started it around 600 lbs this year).

Ingredient                     Amount (lbs)
Cottonseed Hulls 560
Milo, steam-rolled 360
Corn Grain, cracked 312
Oats, steam-rolled 300
Cotttonseed Meal 260
Molasses Blend 5-58 150
Calcium Carbonate (Bulk) 28.4
Fat Pack 99                     20
Magnaferm Yeast Culture 15
Salt Premix                       6
Ruminant Science PX 5
Ammonium Chloride 55# 3
Magnesium Oxie 54%        1
Zinpro Available 4 0.59
Bovatec 68                     0.322
Dyna K                     0
Total                     2021.712

Supposedly comes out to 12% protein, 3.5% fat, 16% fiber.

We add a fat supplement (Final Cover II currently) from the beginning on steers also.  We don't give it to heifers.
 

shortdawg

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Johndeereboy, We use it on both but we may back off the heifers a little when they get to around breeding age and supplement them with a little more hay or beet pulp. Hope that helps.
 

William

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We feed straight barley. We have never had any health problems with it. They all seem to finish out really nicely. Is it bad to feed just barley? Should I start mixing something else in with it?
 

sawboss

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Here is the ration we use for steers and I have been very pleased with the results:

Ingredients to make 1000 lbs. of feed:

38% Calf Starter - Grower    150 lbs.
25% Mineral Concentrate      37.5 lbs.
Whole Oats                            150 lbs.
Chopped Corn                        452.5 lbs.
ADEK (Vitamin Pack)                    5 lbs.
Supercoat Wet Molasses          50 lbs.
ShowGlo Plus Soyoil                    5 lbs.
Cottonseed Hulls                      150 lbs.

This ration is 13% Protein and 3.5% Fat
 

Dusty

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I never fed very scientifically.  I would buy a generic show feed from the coop and then add things to it depending on the animal (more corn, more oats, beat pulp, calf manna, etc) to get what I wanted.  I never weighed any feed.  There are only three things you really need to look at to determine a steers ration.  The steer, the bunk, and the crap.  Those three things will tell you what to feed him.
 

NHR

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This is a ration someone sent me one time:

950 lbs corn
600 lbs oats
350 grain 4 T Fyer (this is a purina product)
135 cotton seed hull
25 lbs rumecin 600
20 lbs gold N'Flo (sold at sullivans supply)
 

NHR

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Dusty said:
I never fed very scientifically.  I would buy a generic show feed from the coop and then add things to it depending on the animal (more corn, more oats, beat pulp, calf manna, etc) to get what I wanted.  I never weighed any feed.  There are only three things you really need to look at to determine a steers ration.  The steer, the bunk, and the crap.  Those three things will tell you what to feed him.

I like your way of thinking
 
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