Grand at houston, how did he compare to past champs

[Steer4Caddy]

A 149 pound calf at birth (what I heard the Fort Worth Grand was) is pretty far away from real world.  We don't need freaks.  This is not a Circus.

 

[JSchroeder]

Where exactly does actual BW come into play in any of the show rings?

 

[Bradenh]

A 149 pound calf at birth (what I heard the Fort Worth Grand was) is pretty far away from real world.  We don't need freaks.  This is not a Circus.

i agree with you here. thats not a 'real world' number, cattle were not made to me having babies that big and we are pushing it too far. it turns it more into a freak show than a cattle show.

jeff- it doesnt matter in the ring but i dont think the cow that crapped that calf out was in very good shape, and when cows are not in good shape, last time i checked. that does not exactly do good for the producers

 

[Steer4Caddy]

I agree there.  Jensen did try to allude to that in some of his comments but there is now way to sort cattle definitively on that.  However, the judges at Fort Worth the last few years have not selected the stout freaky kind in general.  In the slick shows, however, I think you can look at some of the super stout, big boned cattle as just being too much.  There's a middle ground there in muscle and power that you can find, and combine that with design and structure, to come up with a better steer.  I think the Grand from Houston last year was as good as I've seen.  that being said, he may have wieghed 175 lbs. at birth.  There's no way of knowing for sure.

 

[JSchroeder]

Show stopper 95, I'm well aware of what a 145lb+ calf does to a cow.  Judges don't have access to birthweights in the market ring and it's rare they have access to it in the breeding ring.

I would go a step further and say that there is no logical reason for BW to come in to play in a terminal steer ring.  The steer is not going to breed cows and regardless of his size, he was born alive and healthy enough to get to the point he is at that day.

You guys make excellent points regarding logical reasons on how BREEDING stock should be judged.  Those are the cattle that are targeted at producers.

 

[Diamond]

You often hear the terms 'show ring cattle' and 'real world cattle' isn't it time to just admit that the two are opposite of each other? It is a shame, but any show ring tends to draw out,the extremes in characteristics. Look at the dog world, aussis that win have more hair than brains, gsd have hips that look like a ski slope. I can walk faster then a WP horse lopes. We tend to think bigger is better, or flashy or what ever, its humen nature, specially for us americans. We like our lavish ways. I do not want to cause offence but honestly, do you think our shows even cross the mind of a consumer? If cattle breeders where really gearing there cattle to them, we would be housing cooks not fitters. The judges would also have a fork and knife in hand. Again, just my .02 worth

 

[Aussie]

I have been learning alot about your steer comps and show v real world and I think they are two very seperate things but this is the responce I got from Kirk Stierwalt the other day which I was suprised with. He is saying the two are getting closer
Aussie says: What trends do you see emerging in show steer type or do you think more of the same

Kirk Stierwalt says: @Aussie  I think more of the same. I think these cattle are really good right now. I think we are as close to combining the commercial world to the show world with performance and eye appeal. Technology has increased the genetic potential of these cattle today. I get to wondering how much better we can make them. Lot of difference from when I showed to what they are today. Cattle and kids….how can you go wrong. You can’t put a price on memories.

 

[rtmcc]

If the cattle we used in the show ring were exactly like we used in the feedlot, they would all be consistent in type, performance, carcass quality and breed type.  Thats what makes a great pen of cattle.  

But they would be AVERAGE.  How would we determine what is the best one at the show if they were truly like commercial cattle that I see in sale barns and feedlot pens every day?  Consistency really counts in the commercial game.

So we pick the outliers, the greats, the extremes.  Thats what gives us the fun game we play.  Thats what makes the great ones worth more than the AVERAGE ones.  How else could it be if you can only pick one winner?  You have to pick the one that is extremely better than the average.

Now as far as what is the best or ideal or which type should win, thats for another topic.  Thats why we go to more than one show and thats why different people are picked to judge different shows every year.

When I'm buying fed cattle five days a week I want consistency (average) cattle that are the best value with the best product for our plants in load lots.
When we load the trailer for the weekend and head to a show I just want THAT ONE BEST ONE, THE EXTEME OUTLIER, in our trailer.

JMHO

Ron
<cowboy>

 

[Telos]

 
This is a very boutique and exclusion industry ( junior show cattle) and should stay that way. It's crazy, not practical but has some qualities about it that can help teach kids if the teachers are talented and can instill a good perspective approach.

Most of these cattle come from a very tight gene pool that has been developed to help win blue ribbons. Period. And that's OK. As long as if these young kids can see and understand how and why this thing works from a business point of view. It's when you  integrate and try to sell some of  these genetics as being the best into the real world. This is where I have a great big problem. Some may have functional attributes but many are just too trait specific to work well in a commercial setting . I am talking clubby designed genetics for Show Steer production here,  and not all A.I. sires.

 

[rtmcc]

 
This is a very boutique and exclusion industry ( junior show cattle) and should stay that way. It's crazy, not practical but has some qualities about it that can help teach kids if the teachers are talented and can instill a good perspective approach.

Most of these cattle come from a very tght gene pool that has been develop to help win blue ribbons. Period. And that's OK. As long as if these young kids can see and understand how and why this thing works from a business point of view. It's when you  integrate and try to sell some of  these genetics as being the best into the real world. This is where I have a great big problem. Some of these genetics may be functional but most are not in a commercial setting. I am talking clubby designed genetics for Show Steer production here,  and not all A.I. sires.

(clapping) (clapping) <beer>
Ron
<cowboy>

 

[fed_champions]

A 149 pound calf at birth (what I heard the Fort Worth Grand was) is pretty far away from real world.  We don't need freaks.  This is not a Circus.

i agree with you here. thats not a 'real world' number, cattle were not made to me having babies that big and we are pushing it too far. it turns it more into a freak show than a cattle show.

jeff- it doesnt matter in the ring but i dont think the cow that crapped that calf out was in very good shape, and when cows are not in good shape, last time i checked. that does not exactly do good for the producers

Being that dr. mimms is a vet, and Milkman has developed a reputation as a "cow killer" i would say that calf came out the side, not the normal route via C-Section

 

[ROMAX]

I'm pretty sure no judge even cares what a STEER's birthweight was!

 

[Bradenh]

good ovservation romax- we have actually already established that, but good eye. fed champions i forgot about that possibility! that doesnt go well for the producer either. but not many real producers breed to milk man either i guess, unless you have the time and ability to cut one out and lose a cow  (lol)

 

[aj]

What always cracks me up is the judges speech. It always goes something like" Put your hands together for the kids here today. These kids are will be the leaders of the nations beef industry and these cattle are what the industry needs."  You then look around at a barn full of cattle that 80% of them are genetic defect carriers. 52 % were born as c-sections with 95 % of them weighing 110 # or more. And everybody is washing out thousands dollars worth of cosmetic products.

 

[DCC show cattle]

Guys i was going to stay out of this one but it seems like everyone is saying the same thing but if you are concerned with breeding traits it might be time to switch to the heifer show and forget about steers (more relaxed setting for yall) I have shown both heifers and steers and by God's Grace was competitive in both types of projects talking about breed champions and divisions not just high placing but in saying that they are two ENTIRELY different projects. Braden you might not like it and i know it doesnt fit into yalls feedlot and american breeding program but in the showring sometimes it takes the "unreal" cattle to compete but in saying that as well for a steer stand point. You breed the cattle how they can handle it. If a cow only has the pelvis to calf an 80 pounder by no means am I going to breed her to a bull that is even close to that. In the steer producing world people accustomly (sp?) wean cattle at 90 days and start them on creep feeders at 30 days of age. Is it right or along the lines of ones individual program, I would agree not but some people have figured out how to make that work and I applaude them on making it work and being competitive. Thats my take on the steer side. My heifers were never over fed and typically fall borns so the junior division is typically were we were left standing but to great cattle on both sides in the Charolais ring. You have to pick your battles and mine were to make them cows in the pasture not fat pigs in the showring. You have to set up a program and stick with it, observe the other programs, and absorb the "useful" techniques from each. This was a long ramble and I appologize just kinda tired of seeing people talk about the productive stand point of a terminal and entirely infertile animal. If you want to talk about heifers start a new thread a guy asked about the houston champions not if you agreed with the birthweights of the champion at fort worth or the ethics behind one extremely successful breeding program. Just my opinion and good luck at the shows guys!

Kevin Doonan

 

[fed_champions]

Everybody wants to get on this site and talk about ideals. They are just that, ideals, i would like to see a lot of differences in life, politics, gas prices etc. However in reality, this industry has become a full fledged niche market that makes a living for a lot of people. The commercial cowman and the steer breeder are two totally different occupations. A commercial man is running thousands of head of cattle and therefore he can't babysit every cow as she calves. Therefore, doability and efficiciency are a huge must in the commercial industry, those cows go out and are expected to produce year after year. They don't get penned up, hand bred, doctored everytime they have a cold etc. The steer breeder is usually a much smaller operation, consisting of  50-100 cows (some exceptions) therefore, theyre able to keep a closer eye on their cattle, some even fork over some cash when they know a cow won't have a calve naturally. Being that these cattle are bred specifically for the showring, the judges should place no  emphasis on what a calf might have weighed. But like someone said earlier this is beating a dead horse. It makes for interesting conversation, but in reality, its not gonna change anything. Bulls like Milkman, have  made too many breeders, too much money, for them to give up and quit on them. After all most of these cows are flushed anyway, so the real breeding piece( the donor) isn't at as much risk as a cheaper recip.

 

[chambero]

After looking at them several times this week, I strongly preferred the Reserve Grand over the one that beat him.

 

[afhm]

The Newman steer of 05 and Copus's reserve in Houston in I think 01 and This years SA steers are the best 3 slicks ever imo.  I didn't even think this years Houston champ should have even got out of class.

 

[DCC show cattle]

^^^^ (clapping) you said it not me  (lol) but i might have to agree with you 100% there

 

[Telos]

San Antonio Grand:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Champion-steer-nets-85-000-1021697.php