Hartman Happenings

[Joe Boy]

If you did not get a copy of Hartman Happenings from Hartman Cattle Co., Tecumseh, NE, you missed an impressive statement that was made:

"With the genetic problems that have surfaced in recent years, we tested all of our herd sires plus our entire cowherd for TH and PHA as soon as the commercial test became available.  We tested over 300 HCC and HAA brood cows and the whole group tested clean.

The majority of our herd sires tested clean, however Wells Fargo and Contender were TH free but PHA carriers.  The calves by these bulls in this years calf crop will be tested and handled accordingly.  We'll no doubt have some disappointments but hopefully with them being out of clean dams we'll have a good percentage of clean progeny.

As breeders we fell it's imperative to represent our cattle honestly and eliminate the problems as rapidly as possible.  Anyone who denies, ignores or tries to hide the issue is only kidding themselves.  At HCC our plan is to MAKE 'EM GOOD & KEEP 'EM CLEAN!"

I think this is a wonderful attitude and should be remembered by those buying bulls.  His bull sale is June 30th.

I would love to purchase a bull but finances are slim since I have been limited in what I can do since last August 12Th when I tore the ligaments loose in my wrist, which caused me to have to hire a great deal of my work done.  Then my wife had three major surgeries and now I have had three bones removed from my wrist and cannot work for a while yet...so money is limited.  I tested my cattle and had one heifer to test positive.  The older she got the better she looked and always looked like a great keeper.  I sold her to a feedlot to keep me honest.  Therefore, I have a great deal of respect for the Hartmans and wished he was on the AMAA board.

Thanks for reading this.

Joe Dale Wilson

 

[DL]

Joe Boy - sorry for all your bad luck. Re Hartmans - that is similar to their statements in the Voice, my only issue is that it took them a while to "come clean" and get on board - it is difficult for me to believe that they never had a PHA calf and didn't have a clue prior to their recent statements - but they seem to have the best interests of the breed at heart and certainly there are many who haven't taken the steps that they have (although I can't see Mike Hartman in a purple tube top ;D) so I guess I have to say good for them.

 

[afhm]

Derouchey also claims to never have had a pha calf, yet ironically one of the 1st cows list on the confirmed carrier list carries his prefix as do several bulls.

 

[Jill]

HAA Fast Track and BOSS Western Union are both on the PHA list on the Maine web site, and show Hartman as owners, do they not count?

 

[red]

maybe they mean a dead calf?
did enjoy reading their newsletter. Very nice way of doing business to a large group.

Red

 

[bluegrass]

I would like to get that news letter.

 

[red]

Bluegrass, I'm sure if you go to their website you can request one. They have one on the site but it's an old one.
http://www.hartmancattleco.com/

Red

 

[chambero]

I don't know these guys at all.  But I wouldn't consider it completely improbable for them to never have at least "known" they had a dead calf for a few reasons:

They might not have have bred carriers to carriers just because they weren't crossing certain bloodlines.

Isn't it expected that most affected pregnancies actually abort early?

We don't camp out with cows when they are calving.  I'm guessing these guys have lots of cows calving who are expected to take care of business without help or close watcing.  We lose cows sometimes during calving because we aren't out there all day with them.  Sometimes one comes breech that we don't catch, etc.  Often we don't really know what happened because the coyotes get to them so quick at night they are already worked on pretty good shortly after death.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility they are being honest.  At least almost everyone is putting in place the steps necessary to move forward on this issue.  Better late than never.

 

[Joe Boy]

There were lots of people who did not move fast enough when the PHA problem arose.

One in particular that I know lied and I will never buy from him.....my choice.

Others might have been like me and got a carrier bull semen without knowing he was a carrier.  I knew DP was and avoided him or his sons until the test came available, but Paramount was unknown until we started looking for Mr. Dirty Byrd....and we had a daughter by a son of Paramount.  At the same time I have a couple of DP granddaughters who tested clean...  Therefore, I will not conjecture about the integrity of others but appreciate two of the biggest breders making statements about clean the breed....maybe it was late, but the made the right choice by my thinking.

I was and still am discouraged that some breeders run ads and never mention TH or PHA.  I really think this is true of the stud owners.... so like DL I buy elsewhere. 

Large cattle ranchers do not catch all cows who have trouble calving until ofen it is too late.  I recently had a heifer to get out while I went for the trailer...a week later she had a calf.  I fortunately found her and pulled a 107 # calf from a heifer.... the bull had never thrown such a calf to even a mature cow but this registered heifer is not crippled.  She is getting around after several days down, but she is lost to opperation.....  I had to pull it with one hand since I had surgery on my right hand and that was tough too......  My neighbor had a cow dow for a half a day with the calf half way out...I called him, he called the vet and the vet got there 6 hours later and pulled the calf....coyotes came, cow got up and walked off...she was worth $450 and my heifer worth $2000.... it is hard to live with cattle unless you have a few.  I have 82 and cannot be every where so I use easy calving bulls....or so I thought..... nuf said...

 

[DL]

I actually find the whole TH/PHA deal fascinating from the psychological, social, emotional, economic, animal welfare and ethical perspective - we won't use any names here so as not to offend the guilty (isn't it interesting how the truth can be so offensive to the guilty?) but the responses from breeders, and especially people promoting bulls, has been wide, varied and something to behold.

We go all the way from "we just found out the bull we promoted last year is a PHA carrier and we will take back all the semen and replace it with semen from our new TH and PHA free bull" to "Oh we haven't had him tested but it shouldn't be a problem" to "Sure he's a carrier but if you use him on commercial cows you won't have any trouble" to "Oh I didn't know there was a test".

Some people came clean early and stopped selling semen, some came clean early and said this was the greatest bull on earth - just breed him to clean females. Some people omit the carrier status and list only the free status - this appears deceptive to some of us - look at the Shorthorn Country - bulls listed as TH free with Stinger in their background and no PHA results. Similar omissions in some of the semen catalogs. Sellers seem to take advantage of peoples general desire to believe that all cattlemen are honest (or all people are good & honest etc), others take advantage of people's general lack of understanding of the issues - despite a pretty hefty educational campaign lots of people just don't get it. Some people take advantage of everyone's desire to win.

So it appears that there are lots of different ways that sellers are handling the situation - some appear straightforward, some a little sleazy; some a little late, so one wonders what  is the motivation? money? reputation? ethics? the good of the breed? caught late on an issue people seem to care about better jump on board?

While I understand that not everyone sees every cow every day there are a lot of times I have heard "We never had a PHA calf" and I just didn't believe it...one PHA calf couple of years back is a monster - more than one with similar breeding you better be thinking genetic or you have your head in the sand.\

What motivates these very different responses to basically the same issue??

JoeBoy - sorry about your hand - the orthopod couldn't understand why I couldn't get the torn cartilage fixed until after calving season! He was also not thrilled that there was hay in the bandage - but that is a different story ;D

 

[red]

The challenge I'm facing now is what to do if you've sold a carrier female to someone long before the test was available or known. Problem is they don't want to return the cow but want some form of compensation. We were nice enough to test her ourselves, most are not willing to do that.
I know it's very easy to say don't sell a carrier but what if one was sold before the test? It's a stickey wicket, especially if they want to keep the cow.

Red

 

[Jill]

I'm going to throw this out, just remember it is only my opinion.  Someone on one of the post stated that people assume that all breeders have integrity until they find out differently.  We have been in this deal long enough that we assume all breeders have no integrity until proven differently.  I find it hard to believe that the big boys would intentionally damage a breed that is the bread and butter of thier business, it is just not in thier best interest.  This is NOT the small family farm where everyone works and they don't always see the cows, it's not the commercial guy that they better be able to calve by themselves.  The 2 farms that have been referenced do this for a living, they are selling 5000.00 to 100000.00  calves, what on earth would make you think if they had a PHA monster calf no one would know it.  I know we have called DeRouchey's during calving season and Fred sleeps at the farm.  They keep incredible records on everything from birth weight to GenStar tenderness score.  I know DL would automatically think genetics, but that has more to do with her background and I don't think the normal Joe Blow would, we have had monkey mouth calves and never thought to send in samples, never knew you were suppose to.  We really don't know in most cases what the carriers were bred to, in Fred's case he has a lot of Angus based cows, so he may not have ever had a problem that he knew about until he had semen out on thousands of cows and reports start coming in that there is in fact a problem.  I am a synical gal for the most part on this issue I lean toward "caught late on an issue people seem to care about better jump on board?"  I don't think on this deal we will ever know who knew what and when, and I don't think continuing to point fingers will change that fact.

 

[red]

Excellent post Jill!
I guess, myself I didn't know about sending in defective calves or notifying people until i statred reading board posts. I tend to go the other way though, I guess I try to believe the good in people. We've been burnt before but it doesn't stop us!

Red (clapping)

 

[DL]

The challenge I'm facing now is what to do if you've sold a carrier female to someone long before the test was available or known. Problem is they don't want to return the cow but want some form of compensation. We were nice enough to test her ourselves, most are not willing to do that.
I know it's very easy to say don't sell a carrier but what if one was sold before the test? It's a stickey wicket, especially if they want to keep the cow.

Red

I agree that this is a sticky wicket but if the people want to keep the cow then I do not believe they deserve any compensation. You tested, you informed them - they have the option to return the cow for either cash or another - they want to keep the cow - their choice.  If you buy a dog from a reputable breeder with a guarantee it basically means that if the dog develops hip dysplasia they will replace the dog, not that the dog is necessarily free of defects. In general you have to return the "defective " dog......you took the high road red, don't let 'em wear you down!

 

[red]

She has been bred to a clean bull & is pregnant so I feel we lived up to our end. I guess there comes a point where the buyer does need to do some research on their part. To come back later & say they knew nothing about PHA is an easy way out. Most of us at one time knew nothing about either defect. If you are going to buy another breed of cattle than what you usually use, you better do your homework. I explained to him that all Maines should be tested for sale at some point whether they come out of clean genetics or not. He is also fussing about having to spend $27 for each of her calves for the test. Just not sure what people expect. No, I know what he wants- to keep the cow & get another clean heifer at a huge discount.

Ain't life fun!!!

Red

 

[DL]

I'm going to throw this out, just remember it is only my opinion.  Someone on one of the post stated that people assume that all breeders have integrity until they find out differently. 

In regards to assuming that breeders have integrity I was referring to the new kids, the 4H families, the newbies who fall into situations with people who may or may not be honest, have ethics, and have integrity. There are a lot of them out there - they get under the wing of someone who is "mentoring" them and they think they are doing the right thing - I spoke to a women a while back - they had 5 heifers - 2 TH calves and a PHA calf - she didn't have a clue and assumed that the people she was working with were above board. I think most people generally want to think the best about people (until they get screwed) - and that is how they get caught. Yeah we could argue that people should do their homework and be educated (and they should) but they don't or they think by talking with someone in the business that they have done their homework.

I am constantly amazed at the confusion that remains -PHA calf out of a  "clean pedigree"  - what is the real story - yes the sire is clean, and the maternal grand sire is clean but did we forget about the empty hole in the maternal grand dam?  How about the statement from Hartman's Happenings re the use of carrier bulls "We'll no doubt have some disappointments but hopefully with them being out of clean dams we'll have a good percentage of clean progeny" - well the % of carriers is 50% - whether the dam is clean or a carrier if mated to a carrier bull....

Jill I agree with you we will never know the truth about a lot of this, but I am a cynic too and I think people hide a lot of things and have secrets. I disagree however that it is my background that automatically would make me think genetics and others wouldn't - anybody with a lick of sense who has been in the cattle business any period of time should think something is amiss if they have to monsters in a row - I think part of the reason they don't (or might not) is denial - who really wants to admit they have a problem - I think it is human nature to think (hope) it will just go away.

Like I said this is very interesting from all sorts of aspects unrelated to cattle....

 

[DL]

She has been bred to a clean bull & is pregnant so I feel we lived up to our end. I guess there comes a point where the buyer does need to do some research on their part. To come back later & say they knew nothing about PHA is an easy way out. Most of us at one time knew nothing about either defect. If you are going to buy another breed of cattle than what you usually use, you better do your homework. I explained to him that all Maines should be tested for sale at some point whether they come out of clean genetics or not. He is also fussing about having to spend $27 for each of her calves for the test. Just not sure what people expect. No, I know what he wants- to keep the cow & get another clean heifer at a huge discount.

Ain't life fun!!!

Red

You did the right thing, he needs to get real

 

[chambero]

Until the point the test was available, I don't think you owe anybody anything.  There was nothing wrong with the animal itself, they just carry a bad recessive gene - that lots of animals from lots of different breeds have had to deal with before.  Money historically hasn't been refunded on things like that.  As bad as PHA and TH area, it doesn't make an animal worthless.  

You can't make every customer happy no matter how hard you try.  We've had people very unhappy with us about things in my mind they have no right to be.  A lot of people don't know how to take care of cattle and many more have unrealistic expectations.  Because of my experiences when I know we've always tried to do things right, I don't assume any breeder is dishonest until proof is provided otherwise.

 

[Gypsy]

Good grief Red - You have done the all the "right" (moral & ethical) things.  We all like to talk about "ethical" breeders, great.  How about a little discussion about "ethical" buyers?  The cattle world is just like the rest of the world. Some folks do business (what EVER the business might be) the right way and lots don't.  For a great example of a less ethical BUYER re-read the post under Collecting Old Money about the buyer that filled in the line of the check $2,000.00 and the box for $20,000.00, probably NOT an honest error.  What your buyer is asking of you isn't right he is just trying to get something out of you because you are a nice person and he sees an opportunity.  You made the folks a very fair offer, (especially since they knew the odds going into the deal) stick to your guns.

 

[red]

Thanks, I'm finding out some things about the guy.
Learn, live & love!!!

Red