Help a dummy...please???

[pjkjr4]

I am addicted to this website. My wife says that I'm a sick, sick man.

I see several of you breeders talking about bulls and females. I really enjoy reading all the discussions about all the quality cattle you guys and gals raise, and especially the pictures of cattle you raise or buy.

Here's my question....What's the deal with the TH and PHA or the PH and THA?? )) Would that be an issue to someone that is just looking for club calf steers? I don't see myself ever raising any of my own, even though I would absolutely love to. I don't seem to have much extra time between work, kids extra activities, and their show steers.

Thanks for the help.

 

[farmboy]

do some searches on here. i know we have beaten it to death 

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

If you are just buying show steers and not breeding stock, it will not make any difference if they are carriers or not.RW

 

[shortyjock89]

TH is Tibial Hemimelia (sp), and originated in the Shorthorn breed.  Classic presenting qualities of TH are: hernia of internal organs and possibly the brain, severely deformed rear legs, and a very shaggy hair coat.  Some TH afflicted calves can sometimes be born alive and I have even seen some try to get up and nurse, it can be very sad to see.  There is some debate of whether the TH mutation that affects Shorthorns is the same TH that affected Galloway cattle some 40 years ago, and personally, I suspect it is because of the discrepancies in Irish Shorthorn Breeders' pedigrees, and the original Shorthorn TH carrier, Deerpark Improver, is said to be sired by 1/2 Galloway bull.  

PHA is Pulmonary Hypoplasia with Anasarca, and originated in the Maine Anjou breed.  Allflicted calves that make it to full term are always born C-section. They are born full of fluid, and can commonly weigh well over 200 lbs.  The calves may not even resemble calves, and may look more like a very swollen pig (or monster haha).  PHA also affects Dexter cattle, but I don't believe that it's the same mutation.  

It doesn't matter if your steers are carriers or out of carriers, but if you ever start breeding cattle, ALWAYS avoid breeding carriers of one of the mutations to a carrier of the same mutation, and it's easier if you just breed defect-free cattle.  Both mutations are simple-recessive, meaning you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting an afflicted calf if both parents are carriers.  

Help any?

 

[Simmimom]

Nice summary!!!

 

[Show Heifer]

I'll make it easy for ya pj4.... do not use carriers of any defect in any breed. I do not care if it is TH/PHA/AM/OS/FCS/IB's..... avoid them all like they are brucellousis. (That means avoid them at all cost!!)

Reasons: You will breed to carriers tell yourself "these will be terminal cattle regardless...." and you will get that "super dooper heifer" and decide to keep her. She might be a carrier, but of course, you don't sell her anyway. You then have a carrier in your herd and then the cats out of the bag. OR worse, you will get a "super dooper bull" and keep him and use for yourself, or worse yet, sell him to spread carrier genetics to another herd.  Either way, not good.

Funny, how most on this board say "everyone knows about TH/PHA by now" and yet, here is a question concerning them. Funny how that works......

 

[DL]

correction- addition to Olson's post

Since there are no samples from affected or carrier Galloways we will never know if the mutation that causes TH in Shorthorns is the same as that in Galloways. The Galloway breed managed to identify it as a recessive trait and eliminate the carriers with test mating of carriers or suspected carriers and aborting calves.

There are 2 TH mutations that originated in the Shorthorn breed - the so called "Improver" mutation and the "Outcast" mutation - both are deletions, the Outcast deletion is significantly bigger that the Improver. Although TH calves may occasionally be born alive, the combination of defects is incompatible with life.

Although everyone "assumed" that the marble bone in Red Angus came from the blacks, the Red Angus MB mutation has been identified and it is not the same as the black MB mutation. To date, the black MB mutation has not been identified - suggesting to me that any "assumptions" we make about defects in one breed need not apply to other breeds

Not all PHA calves that are carried to term or close to term require c-section, although many do. The PHA mutation was originally identified in 3 bulls - Draft Pick, Stinger (both Maines) and the composite bull (registered as a Chi) Payback. Since the Shorthorn breed allowed Maines in their herd book there are any number of Shorthorns who trace to the MA bull Stinger -

Draft Pick’s maternal great grand sire, Paramount (AMAA # 77; born 1973), a full-bood Maine-Anjoubull exported from England to Canada, was a PHA carrier. Due to incomplete or inaccurate pedigrees or inability to obtain samples from older full-blood Maine-Anjou cattle, the origin of the mutation in Stinger and Payback has not been positively identified. Molecular
markers surrounding the gene suggest the French import Dalton (AMAA # 15; born 1970) as a common source for Stinger and Payback.

PHA  is the result of a a single mis-sense mutation common to Draft Pick, Stinger, and Payback - the PHA mutation in Dexters is a deletion (ie they are not the same)

There has been one report of PHA in a Hereford calf - the calf did not have either the Maine or Dexter mutation

There are quite a few Shorthorn bulls that have the distinction of being carriers for both TH and PHA - Double Stuff was aptly named before it was even know he was a double carrier

If you are interested in breeding cattle - do your homework before you buy - in less than a decade at least 7 lethal and several non lethal recessive mutations have been identified in various breeds - with testing available for many, and other tests in the works you can avoid lethal recessive mutations...

 

[frostback]

Here's my question....What's the deal with the TH and PHA or the PH and THA?? )) Would that be an issue to someone that is just looking for club calf steers? I don't see myself ever raising any of my own, even though I would absolutely love to. I don't seem to have much extra time between work, kids extra activities, and their show steers.

Thanks for the help.
[/quote]

If you are just looking for show steers you may want to educate yourself to the TH carrier sires as there is a correlation between TH carriers having more hair. That is a good thing for show steers unless you live in Texas and you have to just shave it all off. Frostie

 

[JbarL]

i kinda feel like ive come full cirlce.. ....thanks all...good to hear ya again dl....jbarl

 

[brandisshortys]

Since you are just interested in steers, it shouldn't matter whether or not your calf is a carrier of these diseases because a steer isn't breeding stock.  In case you ever do get into breeding stock, I encourage you to take a look at the differences between TH/PHA carriers and non-carriers.  It's kinda like horned cattle.  A lot of the good ones have em.  TH/PHA topics have been beat to death on what is right and wrong, but I do encourage ALL breeders to evaluate the cattle and realize that we need to do is harness the great qualities (like large foot & bone, plenty of hair, and excellent muscle) from these carriers and breed them and breed them until we clean them up.  This way we can keep the industry defect-free, but still continue to exceed our expectations when it comes to breeding great cattle.

 

[RSC]

Since you are just interested in steers, it shouldn't matter whether or not your calf is a carrier of these diseases because a steer isn't breeding stock.  In case you ever do get into breeding stock, I encourage you to take a look at the differences between TH/PHA carriers and non-carriers.  It's kinda like horned cattle.  A lot of the good ones have em.  TH/PHA topics have been beat to death on what is right and wrong, but I do encourage ALL breeders to evaluate the cattle and realize that we need to do is harness the great qualities (like large foot & bone, plenty of hair, and excellent muscle) from these carriers and breed them and breed them until we clean them up.  This way we can keep the industry defect-free, but still continue to exceed our expectations when it comes to breeding great cattle.

  BINGO!  Good Post!

Tony

 

[oakbar]

It's always nice to see that others share the same addiction as we do!!    Don't feel bad, my wife thinks I'm nuts, too---and not just about Steer Planet!!  One word of warning--you may sometime get more advice than you want---don't take it personally!!  Everyone is free to express their opinions on SP, just as everyone is free to agree with them or not!  Given enough time with your new "bad habit" you will eventually find those who are willing to help versus those who are more interested in winning arguments. 

Welcome to your newest "bad habit"!!

Oakbar

 

[brandisshortys]

Thanks Tony!  I think it's important that we control the disease, but don't let it drive us away from great cattle.