Help-semen agreement issue

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box6rranch

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We sold our bull last week. The buyers knew we planned on keeping partial semen rights. We took a check to make sure it cleared the bank. They are to come and pick it up on Sunday. We planned on having the contract ready for them to sign with the exchange of the bull.  I received an e-mail yesterday telling us that now they aren't interested in us keeping a share of the semen and that in the future we can buy semen from them. What should we do?????????????????????????????
 

red

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anything in writing? Was it sold private or through a sale?  Not sure of your rights but if they renege I'd sure never do business w/ them again.

Red
 

box6rranch

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It was a private sale. The only thing I have in writing is a string of e-mails where I continually referenced the fact that we wanted to keep partial semen rights.
We have never sold a bull before and actually if anyone can help me out with a contract that they might have that would be great.
 

Show Dad

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Option 1:  Keep the bull and give them back the money.

Option 2: Negotiate a new deal which includes a number of straws for you in exchange for them getting full semen rights (and more money).

Option 3: Let them dictate the terms of the deal.

If you go with option 3 I will loose all respect for you. I personally would go with option 1. Who knows how they will deal with you in the future since they are play lose with the arrangement now. Going with option 2 could work or give you an ulcer. Your choice.

JMHO  <alien>
 

box6rranch

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Option 2: Negotiate a new deal which includes a number of straws for you in exchange for them getting full semen rights (and more money).


I knew there was a reason I loved this site and all of you guys! Great idea.....................I will throw that one back and see if it sticks :O)
 

justintime

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Are you wanting to keep semen for use in your own herd or are you wanting to keep a full semen interest and share any income and expenses from the sale of semen?  I have seen buyers before that do not want to have anything to do with selling semen or any hassles that go with it. I have seen bull buyers that do not want to have any hassles with anyone in regards to managing a bull.If you just want some semen to use yourself, I would suggest that you make that clear with the buyer. Tell them that you are going to collect some semen before the bull leaves your possession... and when you do transfer the bull, make sure it was after the semen was collected so there won't be any issues down the road. I would also check with the breed association and find out if you have to keep your name on the registration paper, as a part owner in order to register calves... or can this be  done some other way.

Something seems strange here, and I would be trying to find out why they have demanded this. There has to be a reason. If they insist on this, maybe you can work a deal where you can get the semen you want, for the cost of collecting it. I have done this before. I have told a buyer that I would like some semen, and I will pay for X amount when he is collected.

I would also take a hard look at why you want to keep semen. I have found that I oftentimes want to keep some semen from several bulls I have sold over the years. Once I have the semen in my tank and the bull is gone, i seldom ever use it. That is part of the reason I have literally thousands of doses of semen around. I would have to live to be 10,000 to use it all.

It seems to be that it is very unusual for this to be happening especially on the first bull you have sold. If it is important enough for you to stick to your guns and get the semen you want, then give them the money back and find another buyer. I would recommend that if you get in a real pissing match over this, that word will spread around that you are unreasonable and hard to deal with ... so be careful with this one. You have rights.. and the buyer in this case is making some very unreasonable demands here... but sometimes you have to swallow hard and let them know that it is them who have changed the rules after the game has started.
 

red

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my only concern is that since they paid for bull it's legally theirs. I'd check into what rights or alternatives you have without getting caught in a mess.

Red
 

box6rranch

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Larkspur, CO
We've collected 140 straws already. We planned on offering them for sale. Don't know if that's what scared this buyer or not. They knew. Anyway I think what we'll do is put in the contract that we have the right in the next 12 months to come get the bull (he's not that far from us) and have the semen collected at our expense. If they should sell the bull before that they need to notify us before it's release and offer us the opportunity to have semen collected. What do you think about that?
 

renegade

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The thing with my bull was I had cash, breeding rights, and a pick of his first calves as partial payment (they were all just born so I am picking out a calf next week) I get one calf.  They guy who bought him was totally fine with it and I would have negotiated with him a little on it but not much because lets face it - I wasnt the one who needed a bull and this bull was a champ and reserve several times over
 

farwest

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If you cashed the check and have nothing in writing that both of you signed, then i would say you are SOL.  We can't be so naive to believe this is a good old boy hand shake business.  Something in writing by both signed sure isn't a legal document drawn up by an attorney and notorized, but it will sure be a reminder and take alot of nerve by someone to breach it.  It gets rid of the play stupid i don't know mode.  RSC might comment on this one, i believe he sold a bull with retaining some semen rights, see how he handled it. 
 

jbh

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red said:
my only concern is that since they paid for bull it's legally theirs. I'd check into what rights or alternatives you have without getting caught in a mess.

Red


Yes, BUT....if the string of emails spoken of has the stipulations spelled out in detail before the check was written, then there is your agreement already bound and in place, and just needs put into actual contract form.

p.s......my personal experience is that you're gonna have to deal with this type of behavior for the entire life of the bull, if they're starting it before they ever even have him.  If you love the bull, then give them their money back and tell them sorry for the misunderstanding......if you don't love the bull...cash the check and move on with life.  The so many units a year option is good, but you may have trouble even getting that.
 

dori36

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Central Lower Michigan
box6rranch said:
Option 2: Negotiate a new deal which includes a number of straws for you in exchange for them getting full semen rights (and more money).


I knew there was a reason I loved this site and all of you guys! Great idea.....................I will throw that one back and see if it sticks :O)

Also, emails are considered valid "verbal" communication and are subpoenable in a court of law.  No, you obviously don't want to end up in court and I don't think you have to.  But be sure to save all emails between you.  Did they email anything back to you saying they agreed/understood that you were retaining semen rights?  If so, I think you have a little bit of strength as you renegotiate. Print 'em all out and have them at hand as you re-negotiate.  I'd also try for retaining semen rights with a finite amount and/or time.  Then, they get them all. But, I agree with the statement that it's worth more $ if you don't have semen rights for the life of the bull.  Good luck!
 

CAB

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  If I were you and you are happy with the price that you got for the bull and have 140 units of semen in your pocession now, I would be done with it. You'll want to use other bulls in conjunction with this anyway. On the other hand if you are 90+% sure that this bull is going to take off and be used by many in the future you may want to haggle out some details, but I think if they're already changeing what they said they'd do, I'd cut that cord. Life's too short. Brent
 

dori36

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CAB said:
  If I were you and you are happy with the price that you got for the bull and have 140 units of semen in your pocession now, I would be done with it. You'll want to use other bulls in conjunction with this anyway. On the other hand if you are 90+% sure that this bull is going to take off and be used by many in the future you may want to haggle out some details, but I think if they're already changeing what they said they'd do, I'd cut that cord. Life's too short. Brent

Obviously, I don't know whether this was a registered bull or a crossbred where the breeding certificates wouldn't be an issue.  But if he's registered and his registry requires breeder/owner certificates as a condition of registering his calves, the 140 straws won't have any value to a breeder who wants a registered offspring unless there's a shared semen agreement on file with the registry.  If he's primarily to be used for commercial or unregistered calves, I guess it wouldn't matter who had the semen. 
 

box6rranch

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Obviously, I don't know whether this was a registered bull or a crossbred where the breeding certificates wouldn't be an issue.  But if he's registered and his registry requires breeder/owner certificates as a condition of registering his calves, the 140 straws won't have any value to a breeder who wants a registered offspring unless there's a shared semen agreement on file with the registry.  If he's primarily to be used for commercial or unregistered calves, I guess it wouldn't matter who had the semen. 

This is my concern as well. I need to call the ASA to find out. The bull is registered PB Shorthorn.
 

CAB

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I thought about that and in that case, print up an agreement that you can get a maximum # of 140 certs. Have them sign-off. Brent
 

GoWyo

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Each state's law is different, so it will vary depending on your state and whether there is a particular statute that governs these types of agreements.  However, assuming no specific state law, under the common law, you have an oral agreement to sell the bull for a certain price.  The devil is in the details and the general rule is that you sell the entire bull unless you specifically and clearly reserve an interest.  Without seeing each email correspondence it would be difficult to tell whether you clearly stated your intent to reserve an interest when the bargain was reached.  Because it is an oral agreement and there appears to be an ambiguity about the details of the agreement, a court (under the common law) would allow in the evidence (emails leading up to the bargain) to try and determine what were the details of the basic agreement.  At that point it is a legal determination on the facts appearing in the emails, what each side says is the bargain, etc.  So, the final result is that it depends . . . . on a lot of things, state law, evidence, etc.

Long story short, is it worth the PITA factor to try to reserve a lifetime interest and collect later on?  For example new buyers may come up with excuses like bull is "leased to a friend in another county or state," will have broken unit, various health issues, alleged to be dead, etc., so it seems that it would really have to be worth it to reserve the semen interest for the life of the bull.  Maybe so many units would be better and collect it right away.  The comment above on breed association requirements for registration was a good one too that I had not thought of.  JMHO, but interesting case.
 

RSC

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I have been in a similiar situation in the past.  If it was me I would try and set up a certian amount of units per year at cost for in herd use but no %.  Who knows maybe you will having issues getting the semen but you attempted.  My take is this,  I assume you still have the factory at home.  Evidently if they are trying to back out of the sharing a semen interest they must think he has potential.  It's fun to try and promote one of your own,  However the odds stack in your favor that you are going to spend more money on adds than revenue generated.  Maybe you have the next great one, who knows?

If the new owners go out and prove him and make a bunch of money yes it would bite a little.  Guess what now you have a proven cow and still should come out all right.  If you back out and end up selling the bull to Farmer Joe that doesn't want to promote, the bull might not sell anything?  If you are being nice enough to back out of the original agreement, ask them if they promote him if they would be willing to mention you as the breeder in all the Adds.  This could pay as much dividends for your operation as paying 1/3 of the advertising bill.

Tony
 
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