Helpful or Too Helpful???

[SSIMMENTALS]

We have a first time family showing cattle in my county this year. They're really excited and have bought some clubby type heifers. Now heres the problem. They are planningto breed these heifers to Heatwave, as advised by the man who sold them the cattle. They're really proud to be doing this.  I have heard of some nightmares that have happened with heifers and Heatwave. Don't know if the heifers are carriers or clean, but should I somehow suggest that Heatwave is a hard calver and that there might be genetic defects, or should I keep my big mouth shut?

 

[red]

tell them that no heifer should be bred to Heat Wave. Huge mistake. you'll save them grief in the long run. Explain what easy calving bulls are & give example of some. goal is for a live calf & heifer.
As far as chances of being a carrier, I'd certainly test heifers before breeding. you can give them one of Dr Kaiser's articles on defects.

Red

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

Thanks Red.
I just hope that they will listen to me. I might share a few of the horror stories with them. I just don't know if I will be heard since the seller has suggested it and I don't want to step out of line and be rude. But I would hate for something horrible to become of their heifers.

 

[TJ]

Thanks Red.
I just hope that they will listen to me. I might share a few of the horror stories with them. I just don't know if I will be heard since the seller has suggested it and I don't want to step out of line and be rude. But I would hate for something horrible to become of their heifers.

Be as nice as you can be & tell them that you are concerned because Heatwave is not recommended for heifers or even some cows, for that matter.   If you get a chance, do share some horror stories.  Don't expect them to necessarily listen to you though & if they don't, simply drop it.  But, they will thank you when the calves decide that it is time to arrive & you will have earned their respect! 

The sad part of this is that the majority of people try to hit a homerun with virgin heifers.  And even those who don't try to hit a homerun, still wind up & use a bull that only "sometimes" works on virgin heifers, because one side of his pedigree is low birth weight or maybe he himself had a low birth weight.   IMHO, if it "aint" a proven calving ease bull, don't ever recommend it to someone who is calving out 1st time heifers, because they wont respect you too much when they have to get out the winch or the call the Vet!  Heifers get ruined, don't breed back, die, etc., etc., because people are too hard headed to use a proven calving ease bull & they go for something close to one because they think it will give them a better calf.  But, dead good ones don't win shows!!  And heifers that don't breed back or die due to calving difficulties, don't ever produce champions!!   

As for me personally, my calf pulling days are over, unless I end up with a fluke.   And you better believe that I WILL always recommend an easy calving bull for virgin heifers!  And I don't care to call someone out for giving terrible advice that could lead to a train wreck.  
 

 

[ROMAX]

Sounds like there just jumping on the bandwagon and havent really done the homework. we always breed our heifers angus first time around.

 

[DL]

Many people never do their homework - I am still getting calls from people who are surprised that they had a PHA calf - hmmm, go figure.

I see two issues - the potential for a defective calf and breeding heifers. This is probably one of those no win situations - so I always go with what I can live with knowing that people are often ignorant, uneducated and spend a bunch of money on animals with less thought than buying a refrigerator.

There are a bunch of books and extension publications and beef handouts (ie from the Cow-Calf Management Guide or Beef Handbook) that you could copy and give them- in addition to the articles. Cover a variety of topics including breeding heifers and defects and sort of friendily (is that a word) give to the family of kid saying since you are new to this thought you might find these helpful, I have lots of stuff if you need more info....that way you are helpful but not judgmental and not dissing the breeder which would likely close the avenue of communication (if they think highly of him) - most people will do what they want no matter how bad an idea it is - I would provide information in the way of education but unless specifically asked I wouldn't give my opinion on their choice of sire - bad decisions are made every day and they are often a welfare concern - but...(another sticky wicket) -

 

[simtal]

I would tell them, it could possibly work but you're playing with fire.

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

Thank you everyone. You have said what I needed to hear. I am going to talk with them about breeding season getting closer, and then say that I am breeding a few heifers to clubby bulls this year. ( I'm lying through my teeth, but thats what they need to hear!!) Then, I'm going to bring up a few CE bulls that I plan to use and say something about it being important to select for a proven sire of low birthweights. Hopefully I can get around to the fact the Heatwave has some nice calves sometimes, but that I am not going to use him on the heifers and why. Then, if they jump me, I'm just going to nicely state my case w/o saying that their seller is crazy : and if they dont want to listen, I'll drop it and hope that a nine year old  little girl who is very excited about aiing her heifers doesn't end up w/ dead cows.  I think that they  should listen as they are very logical people, but you just never know about people who are not informed and are just getting their feet wet. All is good unless they think the breeder who is also coming to AI the heifers, knows all and can do no wrong.

 

[knabe]

when they go ahead and do it, and it doesn't work, don't go the i told you so route.  they will remember you told them.  just be ready for your next advice without talking them down.

 

[jasper]

  I can offer you this as my opinion:

      Being a first time family  ourselves,  we  would greatly appreciate it. <cowboy>

 

[TJ]

when they go ahead and do it, and it doesn't work, don't go the i told you so route.  they will remember you told them.  just be ready for your next advice without talking them down.

Yes, I agree with knabe.  IMHO, nothing is worse than rubbing salt in an open wound.  Just pretend like you never said anything.  They key is to be as nice as possible.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Seriously, maybe the best way to open the conversation is to tell them that you just read a bunch of posts on "Steerplanet", talking about how Heatwave is a train wreck waiting to happen on virgin heifers.  Give them the "Steerplanet" address & tell them to go & look for themselves.  If you give me a heads up a few days before, I'll even start the thread by asking "What do you think about Heatwave on heifers?  I've heard it's a train wreck.  What have you heard?"  If everybody else piles on & mentions C-sections & great big calves, your friends can see for themselves & you wont be viewed as the "bad person", just someone who is very concerned after seeing a thread on SP & who is passing along friendly info.  I think that may be the best method of all.  I really do.             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
 

 

[Jill]

It is possible that the breeder suggested Heat Wave for a breeding decision down the line assuming that they would know not to use him on a 1st calf heifer, I would go ahead and say something.

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

Thank you TJ. I will PM you a bit before I talk with them. I think the next 4H meeting is in about two weeks. I'm going to see if Red can take this topic off the board before then, so they won't know about any of this and I really appreciate everyones help. Be sure to tell your horror stories everyone. and suggest any CE bulls you would use instead.
and THANKS