Hide color discrimination a joke...

[JTM]

United Producers Inc. does it again.... Took a couple of fall feeder calves to UPI this week. Stout, thick, moderate, and red colored feeder calf weighing 490 lbs. brings $35 less than the 410 lb. black calf which was not as thick and I know is about 3% Angus.
So the one who is getting the premium for being British is 3% British and the one who gets docked for not being British is 95% British... Something is wrong here folks...

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Thats why Ive called it United Reducers for years. I wish i knew you were selling them. I got orders for freezer beef I cant fill. If you have anymore let me know. We can surely work a deal out

Id like to have the money and place to just buy the off colored feeders from those places. At least run em up to make those weasels squirm a bit. Those off colored cattle are whats keeping them afloat. I dont want to hear anything about how red cattle or shorthorns just dont compete with the black. thats B.S.!!!!!!

 

[Mill Iron A]

I completely agree about hide discrimination but I hear guys complain all the time that we "have to" vaccinate and we "have to" put RFID tags in to get premiums.  The real truth is that you have to take the  price the buyer gives you because they are taking the risk.  I recommend retaining ownership or feeding them yourselves.  Oh and I've had a lot of char/red angus cross cattle ring the bell for the C.A.B grid.... to the tune of 40 to 50 out of the 200 we feed every year.  The last time I looked at the nationwide numbers we are at one of the lowest points for quality grade on average, our reproductive rates are falling, and my favorite thing to add to that equation is that we are at the highest influence of angus cattle we have ever been!  They are such good marketers that they have duped the commercial man into thinking that he should run straight bred cattle as well.

 

[husker1]

Discouraging stuff, guys.

This year in our area, with cattle prices so high, the off-colors...even greys, as selling right with the bunches.  The only ones that seem to still get hammered are the small groups...less that 5 head.  Doesn't matter if they are black or purple, they still get discounted good.

 

[leanbeef]

I completely agree about hide discrimination but I hear guys complain all the time that we "have to" vaccinate and we "have to" put RFID tags in to get premiums.  The real truth is that you have to take the  price the buyer gives you because they are taking the risk.  I recommend retaining ownership or feeding them yourselves.  Oh and I've had a lot of char/red angus cross cattle ring the bell for the C.A.B grid.... to the tune of 40 to 50 out of the 200 we feed every year.  The last time I looked at the nationwide numbers we are at one of the lowest points for quality grade on average, our reproductive rates are falling, and my favorite thing to add to that equation is that we are at the highest influence of angus cattle we have ever been!  They are such good marketers that they have duped the commercial man into thinking that he should run straight bred cattle as well.

Guys...What he's saying is true. And if you try to look at the situation from the perspective of the buyer and put yourself in his shoes, you would be buying calves as cheap as you could get em as well. The stock barn anymore is a place where people can conveniently unload odd lots of cattle they either don't want to market or don't have a market for. Buyers come there to buy cattle (at the front end of a long chain) with room to make money on them. They have to guess about everything they can't see in about 60 seconds when that calf runs through the ring, and then most of them send the calf to somebody else who has given him an order telling him what he wants and how much to spend. Our decisions as breeders should include some consideration to how and where and when we're going to market our product and what that market demands. If we're not producing what the market wants for whatever reason - and we have the option of not producing all black cattle - but you can't sell them at a place that wants black cattle and expect reds to bring top dollar. There IS a market for your cattle, but when you back up to the stock barn and unload em, you're probably not ever going to realize the full potential of that market no matter what kind of cattle you haul in.

 

[nate53]

I completely agree about hide discrimination but I hear guys complain all the time that we "have to" vaccinate and we "have to" put RFID tags in to get premiums.  The real truth is that you have to take the  price the buyer gives you because they are taking the risk.  I recommend retaining ownership or feeding them yourselves.  Oh and I've had a lot of char/red angus cross cattle ring the bell for the C.A.B grid.... to the tune of 40 to 50 out of the 200 we feed every year.  The last time I looked at the nationwide numbers we are at one of the lowest points for quality grade on average, our reproductive rates are falling, and my favorite thing to add to that equation is that we are at the highest influence of angus cattle we have ever been!  They are such good marketers that they have duped the commercial man into thinking that he should run straight bred cattle as well.

Black and Red around here are viewed pretty equally at the salebarn (around here), where guys take a hit is in low numbers (like Husker said).  Will agree retaining ownership is a good idea or even feeding them yourselves or with other local producers.  But if you want or need to sale them, take them to special sales, advertise, age source them (past couple years age sourcing = another 35 dollars per head - will this continue depends if Japan opens up their market more).  We have black cattle and still don't take them to the sale barn, we feed them out ourselves.

Mill Iron - everything I've read and seen over the past few years, suggest quality grade is getting better not worse.  The quality out at National Beef has been steadily increasing for some time (that's why the choice select spread was so narrow, there just is more choice cattle).  Here is a article http://www.hpj.com/archives/2010/feb10/feb1/0125CABhighqualitybeefsr.cfm
IMO angus has helped the industry greatly (are they perfect, no but I haven't seen a perfect anything yet)?   With all this angus influence (positive and negative) we are experiencing record prices so it can't be all bad.

Vaccination programs, eid's, (eid's cost 1 or 2 dollars?), good looking calves, in groups of 20 or more should bring premium.

 

[Mill Iron A]

I use some angus as well, they definately have brought some positives to the industry. I wouldn't give them all the credit for the high prices but I will say they have done some good.  Where my bias comes into play is the demoting of crossbreeding.  The only real given we can have and they tell everyone it's a bad idea.  It's just sad how nieve people can be on this subject.  I don't think I need to go to much into the fact that heterosis brings longer cow life, much higher fertility, more calves, bigger calves, healthier calves etc.  I apologize about my comment about the quality grading.  I heard that from a trusted source who as according to the USDA reports I shouldn't have trusted on that.  However, while I was looking at the yearly averages I did find that YG 4's were signficantly higher 4.9% in 2007 vs. 7.9% now.  My other struggle comes with how angus have been selecting for growth when it was there the whole time.  The same guy that bashes continentals for being "way too big and coarse" is breeding up angus bulls that are just that.  Continental cattle at this point might have similar growth patterns in weight as the high performing angus but composition is extremely different.  There is so much more muscle in a crossbred steer than a purebred angus steer. (as long as you are comparing the "average" crossbred steer with the "average" angus steer if there is such a scenario.  Point being continental cattle typically have more muscle).  Even if the angus cattle become heavier muscled than the continental cattle you still can't breed heterosis into a purebred animal.

 

[kfacres]

I use some angus as well, they definately have brought some positives to the industry. I wouldn't give them all the credit for the high prices but I will say they have done some good.  Where my bias comes into play is the demoting of crossbreeding.  The only real given we can have and they tell everyone it's a bad idea.  It's just sad how nieve people can be on this subject.  I don't think I need to go to much into the fact that heterosis brings longer cow life, much higher fertility, more calves, bigger calves, healthier calves etc.  I apologize about my comment about the quality grading.  I heard that from a trusted source who as according to the USDA reports I shouldn't have trusted on that.  However, while I was looking at the yearly averages I did find that YG 4's were signficantly higher 4.9% in 2007 vs. 7.9% now.  My other struggle comes with how angus have been selecting for growth when it was there the whole time.  The same guy that bashes continentals for being "way too big and coarse" is breeding up angus bulls that are just that.  Continental cattle at this point might have similar growth patterns in weight as the high performing angus but composition is extremely different.  There is so much more muscle in a crossbred steer than a purebred angus steer. (as long as you are comparing the "average" crossbred steer with the "average" angus steer if there is such a scenario.  Point being continental cattle typically have more muscle).  Even if the angus cattle become heavier muscled than the continental cattle you still can't breed heterosis into a purebred animal.

the only disagreement I have with your entire statement.. is heterosis counter-acts consistancy...

 

[leanbeef]

I use some angus as well, they definately have brought some positives to the industry. I wouldn't give them all the credit for the high prices but I will say they have done some good.  Where my bias comes into play is the demoting of crossbreeding.  The only real given we can have and they tell everyone it's a bad idea.  It's just sad how nieve people can be on this subject.  I don't think I need to go to much into the fact that heterosis brings longer cow life, much higher fertility, more calves, bigger calves, healthier calves etc.  I apologize about my comment about the quality grading.  I heard that from a trusted source who as according to the USDA reports I shouldn't have trusted on that.  However, while I was looking at the yearly averages I did find that YG 4's were signficantly higher 4.9% in 2007 vs. 7.9% now.  My other struggle comes with how angus have been selecting for growth when it was there the whole time.  The same guy that bashes continentals for being "way too big and coarse" is breeding up angus bulls that are just that.  Continental cattle at this point might have similar growth patterns in weight as the high performing angus but composition is extremely different.  There is so much more muscle in a crossbred steer than a purebred angus steer. (as long as you are comparing the "average" crossbred steer with the "average" angus steer if there is such a scenario.  Point being continental cattle typically have more muscle).  Even if the angus cattle become heavier muscled than the continental cattle you still can't breed heterosis into a purebred animal.

the only disagreement I have with your entire statement.. is heterosis counter-acts consistancy...

This isn't completely true...
I would argue that you can breed cattle of different breeds and take advantage of heterosis while using cattle that have the same type, design, etc. and the offspring should be very uniform. A lot of breeders do this and make more uniform calves than a lot of purebred breeders! There is as much genetic diversity within any breed as you'll ever find between different breeds, and that's proof enough to me that uniformity is not only found in purebred herds.

Where your argument is valid is if you're talking about mating cattle that are very different in terms of breed, color, frame size, etc. The more different the two parents are, the more heterosis you'll see in the first mating, but also the more inconsistency you will probably see in the next generation. The reason is because genetically, the animal you're using might be a frame score 6, but if his mother was a 4 and his daddy was an 8, then genetically he's a 4 and an 8 that LOOKS like a 6. Cattle like that can't breed true because their phenotype and genotype aren't exactly the same.

 

[chambero]

A few trends over the past year with the feedlot buyers we are currently dealing with:

They are pushing us for calves that finish around the 1200# mark instead of the 1300# mark - they want them in and out quicker due to feed costs.  Doesn't have anything to do with color, but we are seeing some surprising pushback about black Simi influence in our cattle.

Our feedlot buyers are pushing for higher % Angus - goes back to the consistency issue.

 

[leanbeef]

I don't understand why everybody in the purebred cattle sector is so hung up on YW and birth to yearling spread when it comes to EPDs... I wish wish we had a mature cow size EPD and could understand the difference between "maximum" and "optimum". Everybody talks about "moderate framed" but I swear it's just because they hear that's what "the industry" wants. If you take people out into a pen to buy bulls or even females, they still pick size almost every time. Medium framed cows don't start off as the biggest, growthiest heifers in the herd and then just morph into frame 5 cows. I understand why it makes sense for steers to reach harvest weight early, but that's not the same thing as "How much can we make em weigh at a year old?"

 

[kfacres]

I use some angus as well, they definately have brought some positives to the industry. I wouldn't give them all the credit for the high prices but I will say they have done some good.  Where my bias comes into play is the demoting of crossbreeding.  The only real given we can have and they tell everyone it's a bad idea.  It's just sad how nieve people can be on this subject.  I don't think I need to go to much into the fact that heterosis brings longer cow life, much higher fertility, more calves, bigger calves, healthier calves etc.  I apologize about my comment about the quality grading.  I heard that from a trusted source who as according to the USDA reports I shouldn't have trusted on that.  However, while I was looking at the yearly averages I did find that YG 4's were signficantly higher 4.9% in 2007 vs. 7.9% now.  My other struggle comes with how angus have been selecting for growth when it was there the whole time.  The same guy that bashes continentals for being "way too big and coarse" is breeding up angus bulls that are just that.  Continental cattle at this point might have similar growth patterns in weight as the high performing angus but composition is extremely different.  There is so much more muscle in a crossbred steer than a purebred angus steer. (as long as you are comparing the "average" crossbred steer with the "average" angus steer if there is such a scenario.  Point being continental cattle typically have more muscle).  Even if the angus cattle become heavier muscled than the continental cattle you still can't breed heterosis into a purebred animal.

the only disagreement I have with your entire statement.. is heterosis counter-acts consistancy...

This isn't completely true...
I would argue that you can breed cattle of different breeds and take advantage of heterosis while using cattle that have the same type, design, etc. and the offspring should be very uniform. A lot of breeders do this and make more uniform calves than a lot of purebred breeders! There is as much genetic diversity within any breed as you'll ever find between different breeds, and that's proof enough to me that uniformity is not only found in purebred herds.

Where your argument is valid is if you're talking about mating cattle that are very different in terms of breed, color, frame size, etc. The more different the two parents are, the more heterosis you'll see in the first mating, but also the more inconsistency you will probably see in the next generation. The reason is because genetically, the animal you're using might be a frame score 6, but if his mother was a 4 and his daddy was an 8, then genetically he's a 4 and an 8 that LOOKS like a 6. Cattle like that can't breed true because their phenotype and genotype aren't exactly the same.

Two points, you missed:

The purebred, seed stock producer, might not be looking for consistency all the time.. they might be striving to be ahead of the market, and supply all potential customers.. it is their job to be the 'cutting' edge to say..

as i drive around the countryside, over the entire nation.. i cannot help but see momma cows out on pasture of every color, shape, size, and physical build-- in the same group.  on the same, in the same pasture will be two completely different looking worthless looking bulls OR more.  in most cases, these people need something like a homo black sim, or angus bull to fix and uniform the group.. course most of the time, these are people who just go out once a year and gather calves up, or just do it whenever taxes are due. 

 

[nate53]

I don't understand why everybody in the purebred cattle sector is so hung up on YW and birth to yearling spread when it comes to EPDs... I wish wish we had a mature cow size EPD and could understand the difference between "maximum" and "optimum". Everybody talks about "moderate framed" but I swear it's just because they hear that's what "the industry" wants. If you take people out into a pen to buy bulls or even females, they still pick size almost every time. Medium framed cows don't start off as the biggest, growthiest heifers in the herd and then just morph into frame 5 cows. I understand why it makes sense for steers to reach harvest weight early, but that's not the same thing as "How much can we make em weigh at a year old?"

Angus does have a mature height epd as well as a mature weight epd, surely some other breeds have something comparable?
Ideally if you had a big spread (birth to yearling), couple that with breed average or slightly lower for Mature height as well as mature weight (epd's).  You would have in principle a calving ease product that would grow with the bigger calves and yet mature earlier and finish quicker in the feedlot or mature into that medium frame cow. 
The problem is alot of people just look at the spread and don't look at the MH, and MW epd's, so they get a calving ease animal that grows fast but will take alot longer to finish if ever before getting too big.  Some of the framier animals just don't finish in the feedlot (just keep growing taller and getting bigger without finishing)

 

[leanbeef]

I use some angus as well, they definately have brought some positives to the industry. I wouldn't give them all the credit for the high prices but I will say they have done some good.  Where my bias comes into play is the demoting of crossbreeding.  The only real given we can have and they tell everyone it's a bad idea.  It's just sad how nieve people can be on this subject.  I don't think I need to go to much into the fact that heterosis brings longer cow life, much higher fertility, more calves, bigger calves, healthier calves etc.  I apologize about my comment about the quality grading.  I heard that from a trusted source who as according to the USDA reports I shouldn't have trusted on that.  However, while I was looking at the yearly averages I did find that YG 4's were signficantly higher 4.9% in 2007 vs. 7.9% now.  My other struggle comes with how angus have been selecting for growth when it was there the whole time.  The same guy that bashes continentals for being "way too big and coarse" is breeding up angus bulls that are just that.  Continental cattle at this point might have similar growth patterns in weight as the high performing angus but composition is extremely different.  There is so much more muscle in a crossbred steer than a purebred angus steer. (as long as you are comparing the "average" crossbred steer with the "average" angus steer if there is such a scenario.  Point being continental cattle typically have more muscle).  Even if the angus cattle become heavier muscled than the continental cattle you still can't breed heterosis into a purebred animal.

the only disagreement I have with your entire statement.. is heterosis counter-acts consistancy...

This isn't completely true...
I would argue that you can breed cattle of different breeds and take advantage of heterosis while using cattle that have the same type, design, etc. and the offspring should be very uniform. A lot of breeders do this and make more uniform calves than a lot of purebred breeders! There is as much genetic diversity within any breed as you'll ever find between different breeds, and that's proof enough to me that uniformity is not only found in purebred herds.

Where your argument is valid is if you're talking about mating cattle that are very different in terms of breed, color, frame size, etc. The more different the two parents are, the more heterosis you'll see in the first mating, but also the more inconsistency you will probably see in the next generation. The reason is because genetically, the animal you're using might be a frame score 6, but if his mother was a 4 and his daddy was an 8, then genetically he's a 4 and an 8 that LOOKS like a 6. Cattle like that can't breed true because their phenotype and genotype aren't exactly the same.

Two points, you missed:

The purebred, seed stock producer, might not be looking for consistency all the time.. they might be striving to be ahead of the market, and supply all potential customers.. it is their job to be the 'cutting' edge to say..

as i drive around the countryside, over the entire nation.. i cannot help but see momma cows out on pasture of every color, shape, size, and physical build-- in the same group.  on the same, in the same pasture will be two completely different looking worthless looking bulls OR more.  in most cases, these people need something like a homo black sim, or angus bull to fix and uniform the group.. course most of the time, these are people who just go out once a year and gather calves up, or just do it whenever taxes are due. 

Well, I think one problem is that we have a lot of guys trying to supply "all potential customers" which is impossible because there are too many different pieces and too many different markets. So how do we make one thing and make it well so we can sell to ALL these customers?... We don't. I think a lot of producers chase a lot of rabbits instead of focusing on their own goals and their own market share. Let somebody else supply the people who want something different. There's plenty of shares to go around...

Then we have guys who do have goals of their own and are so off in their own little world they don't care what any market is doing...they're doing what they want for their own reasons and they may be doing that well, but nobody really cares! We have to understand who we are and where we fit into the whole scheme of things if we're gonna be halfway successful at this thing.

 

[kfacres]

Then we have guys who do have goals of their own and are so off in their own little world they don't care what any market is doing...they're doing what they want for their own reasons and they may be doing that well, but nobody really cares!

I consider myself in that area... <rock>

 

[leanbeef]

I don't understand why everybody in the purebred cattle sector is so hung up on YW and birth to yearling spread when it comes to EPDs... I wish wish we had a mature cow size EPD and could understand the difference between "maximum" and "optimum". Everybody talks about "moderate framed" but I swear it's just because they hear that's what "the industry" wants. If you take people out into a pen to buy bulls or even females, they still pick size almost every time. Medium framed cows don't start off as the biggest, growthiest heifers in the herd and then just morph into frame 5 cows. I understand why it makes sense for steers to reach harvest weight early, but that's not the same thing as "How much can we make em weigh at a year old?"

Angus does have a mature height epd as well as a mature weight epd, surely some other breeds have something comparable?
Ideally if you had a big spread (birth to yearling), couple that with breed average or slightly lower for Mature height as well as mature weight (epd's).  You would have in principle a calving ease product that would grow with the bigger calves and yet mature earlier and finish quicker in the feedlot or mature into that medium frame cow.   
The problem is alot of people just look at the spread and don't look at the MH, and MW epd's, so they get a calving ease animal that grows fast but will take alot longer to finish if ever before getting too big.  Some of the framier animals just don't finish in the feedlot (just keep growing taller and getting bigger without finishing)

Well, I'm not an Angus breeder, but I do use some Angus genetics. I don't hear anybody talking about mature height or mature weight...I hear people still talking about yearling weight and spread... I think what you're saying makes sense. While theoretically it makes sense that heavier yearling weight translates to fast growth and less time on feed for the slaughter industry, selection for increased YW EPD is probably taking me as a seed stock producer in the direction of increased mature cow size, which is not what I want. Since most of my bull customers sell their calves at weaning and I want cattle that grow fast to weaning and mature early, I've been looking for cattle with heavy WW EPDs and lower YW numbers, but they're not really out there. You can find bulls, especially Angus bulls, that are relatively low on WW and apparently have some post weaning growth, but there aren't many cattle with high WW / average YW EPDs. Not that I've found anyway. If the weaning weight number is high, the yearling number gets even higher.

I think as long as cattle and beef are sold by the pound, this will be an issue. I accept my role as a breeder to keep trying to figure out how to make sense of it and how to put it together to make it work. But I read these sale catalogs and advertisements, and every animal sounds the same... "deep bodied, moderate framed, sound made..." People just say or write what they think they're supposed to say and write to sell one. I don't think we do a very good job of really seeing and understanding and describing what IS... We just assume it's what somebody wants since it's what we have, and we wanna sell it for as much $ as we can get... (I say "we" ...breeders...people.)

 

[leanbeef]

Then we have guys who do have goals of their own and are so off in their own little world they don't care what any market is doing...they're doing what they want for their own reasons and they may be doing that well, but nobody really cares!

I consider myself in that area... <rock>

LOL. Well, congratulations... I guess. ???

 

[kfacres]

But I read these sale catalogs and advertisements, and every animal sounds the same... "deep bodied, moderate framed, sound made..." People just say or write what they think they're supposed to say and write to sell one. I don't think we do a very good job of really seeing and understanding and describing what IS... We just assume it's what somebody wants since it's what we have, and we wanna sell it for as much $ as we can get... (I say "we" ...breeders...people.)

has this ever been not true?  Read ole semen and sale catalogs, and they say the exact same things as today's...  moderate, deep, and outcross and calving ease.. even when it wasn't the case...

I think some people look to prosper off stupid random decisions made at the spur of the moment.  Too few times, people give credit where credit is due... Someday, somebody will shoot the arrow straight, and succeed like you wouldn't dream.

 

[JTM]

Thats why Ive called it United Reducers for years. I wish i knew you were selling them. I got orders for freezer beef I cant fill. If you have anymore let me know. We can surely work a deal out

Id like to have the money and place to just buy the off colored feeders from those places. At least run em up to make those weasels squirm a bit. Those off colored cattle are whats keeping them afloat. I dont want to hear anything about how red cattle or shorthorns just dont compete with the black. thats B.S.!!!!!!

Yeah, I think we could work something out this year if you want. My freezer beef customers absolutely love these pure bred Shorthorn steers.
Good discussion about a lot of different things. I agree with most of what has been said, especially about retaining ownership, etc. I guess the main point of starting this discussion was to continue to advocate for fair comparison when it comes to hide color. I would like to add that the black calf's dam was like a frame 7.5 and would weigh 2,000 lbs when fat. FYI, she was on the trailer too.(An old 4H heifer).

 

[sue]

United Producers Inc. does it again.... Took a couple of fall feeder calves to UPI this week. Stout, thick, moderate, and red colored feeder calf weighing 490 lbs. brings $35 less than the 410 lb. black calf which was not as thick and I know is about 3% Angus.
So the one who is getting the premium for being British is 3% British and the one who gets docked for not being British is 95% British... Something is wrong here folks...

sorry I learned the hard way too.... avoid united producers