how big is too big

[knabe]

couple of comments from a novice.

one of the largest framed easy doing cows i ever saw raised the dinkiest calves.

i like ELBEE's thoughts on age of harvest.  i am not familiar with harvest at this early of a date.  what is the average harvest date nowadays and how far has it come down in recent time and what will it be in the general market compared with the 13 mos target?  also, does acceptable carcass mean low choice, choice?

no shortage of dinky bulls.  are there dinky bulls that are similar to a corn inbred line that hybridizes well with certain backgrounds? ie legacy plus on draft pick cows?  the conundrum seems to me is figuring out the path to keep going back and forth with predictability.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I like big cows and if TJ and I were to switch places chances are we would thing we were in Gulliver's Travels.

I use the combination eyeball-armpit method to determine frame score and the scale for weight - the armpit method is highly scientific and incredibly accurate  ;D - I stand at the side of the cow by the hip -  if I put my arm over her hip and it is a 90 degree angle she is (on my farm) one of the "little cows". If the arm goes up at a 30 degree angle that would be a "moderate" cow and if the arm goes over at a greater than 45 degree angle that would be a big cow and and if the arm goes over at a greater than 45 degree angle I can't touch the other side that would be a huge cow! (On most places my "little cows" might be considered moderate and all the rest big  )

I have a surprising number of "little" and "moderate" cows considering that they all arose from big cows but I have been able to downsize one line in 2 generations and consistently maintain that size with successive generations - however my cows are still bigger than what many want, averaging 1700lbs - as long as they maintain condition with minimal input they can stay, including the huge cow who tips the scale at 2400 - RW if you like the cow who really cares if someone thinks she is too big?? (someone else might think she is too little or the wrong color

DL - started this post as kind of a market research. There is a broad spectrum of people from many different enviroments that use this site. I, like you, like big cows and as long as they make the payments I will stay with them. In the last few years in our breed there has been a shift to moderate the frame scores, I'm not sure why because we were never a large framed breed as a whole. The only explanation I can come up with is that many of the AI bull stud bulls that have the big EPD numbers are also smaller framed cattle - Big numbers = small cows? I'll stick with my 750 - 850# WW and 1400 - 1650# YW calf producing cows.

 

[Jill]

The vast majority of the money you make on a calf is based on their weight.  I think a lot of people want their cows too small.  A couple of things to consider:

For show steer purposes - there is no shortage of thick, dumpy bulls to breed a larger framed cow to.  Nowadays it seems too many steers don't get big enough instead of the opposite.

For commercial purposes - a big cow isn't a drawback for us as long as she is "easy doing". 

We aren't a commercial operation, we raise strictly for show, but I agree with Chambero, our donor cows are all a 7-7.5 frame score, those give us the most choices when it comes to breeding.  From a show ring perspective, they tend to pick steers in the 52 range, but are looking for heifers with a much larger frame size (go figure).  We have never really had much luck with our smaller framed cows, that is generally where we end up with calving issues.  I guess for us, it doesn't really matter how big as long as she maintains body condition without excess care, we have sold a few of our older cows that ate twice as much as anything else on the place and those of any size just aren't economical.  With hay and grain prices easy doing has become a huge cull factor for us in the past couple of years, just can't justify hard doing.

 

[jimmyski]

Of course RW already knows my thoughts on this topic, but I figured I could share it with the rest of you. First and foremost I agree with what most have said in there is no such thing as cow that is too big or too small, only ones that work for you. I think the most important point in deciding what type of cow you want is your environment.  What type of cow is going stay in the best condition, wean the heaviest calf, breed back, and do so with the least ammount of supplementation. For my opperation, this usually happens to be about a 4.5 to 5.5 frame score cow, that typically weighs between 1150 and 1350 lbs depending on the time of year.  I know that I will never be able to raise they same size and type of cattle in Eastern Colorado as someone in Iowa or Indiana can. Just not the same in terms of amount of rainfall and available forage. So, I say find what works best for your opperation and your environment and stick with it. If we all raised the same size and type of cattle, we would be in some serious trouble as an industry.

 

[DL]

RW - my perception of Red Angus based solely on the few I have seen and what I read is that they are an EPD driven small to moderate framed breed - the proverbial "1200 pound cow" - so I was interested in your comments and the average weights of your cows - it didn't fit with my preconcieved notion - I think it was just limited exposure to reality ;D.

I have one big old cow that has calved one more calf than straws of semen and one year weaned her weight  in twin bulls  - she did lose a titch of condition on pasture - but that is an OK job in my book (although expecting 100% WW every year is excessive)

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

DL - If you haven't figured it out yet, I run kind of a rogue program that doesn't really fit the mainstream red angus ideals. I breed for females first and foremost. They must be structuraly correct, feminine, good uddered, with depth and capacity. If they have decent EPDs that's cool but if they don't it doesn't make them a bad cow - just a good cow that's not politically correct.

Jimmyski - Are you going to the NBAR sale in a couple of weeks?

 

[DL]

DL - If you haven't figured it out yet, I run kind of a rogue program that doesn't really fit the mainstream red angus ideals. I breed for females first and foremost. They must be structuraly correct, feminine, good uddered, with depth and capacity. If they have decent EPDs that's cool but if they don't it doesn't make them a bad cow - just a good cow that's not politically correct.

Jimmyski - Are you going to the NBAR sale in a couple of weeks?

RW - well it is always good to have my reality confirmed - even if I do live in a "noncattle state" - so I guess that makes you the James Dean of the Red Angus breed - cool ;D ;D

 

[TJ]

I like Show Heifers thoughts on weaning 60% of damm's body weight. I also like the idea of harvesting calves with acceptable carcass's at 13 months.

1250# cow x60% = 750# calf @ 205 days + 180 days on feed x 3.5 ADG = 630# for a harvest weight of 1380 @ 13 months.

How economically can you get this done?

My dad has actually done this with his Tarentaise herd.  Back in the mid 90's, we competed in the Great Western Beef Expo in Sterling, Co. with 2 different pens.  Those calves weaned off in the 700 lb. range, off moderate framed cows, they were started on feed sometime in Nov. & they were slaughtered in early May.  These steers were March - May calves, so the average age was real close to 13 months & the average finishing weight was up in the 1300+ lb. range.  We did pretty well & won several awards in the 2 years that we competed.  As far as economics... factors like the price of corn & feed effeciency will effect the bottomline, but raising those type of calves make money. 

 

[Show Dad]

DL - But he (RW) is a rebel with a cause 8). RW at least DL didn't say you were like Jerry Lewis  . You know her being in a non-cattle state and all. BTW DL is that anything like being in a state of flux or more of a catatonic state?

 

[DL]

DL - But he (RW) is a rebel with a cause 8). RW at least DL didn't say you were like Jerry Lewis  . You know her being in a non-cattle state and all. BTW DL is that anything like being in a state of flux or more of a catatonic state?

SD - I was gonna say Rebel with a Cow (which of course is the cause) - and since we don't have a budget in our state and the state may close down (how do you close a state - does that mean no one can come in? sure would put a damper on fall sales  ;D) it could be considered a state of flux; since I am allergic to cats it's not a catatonic state but it could be the state of denial - which I believe is south of Georgia - shortdawg would know, or maybe it is west of Kansas....

 

[stick]

Better a rebel with a cause, than as Tom Petty would say, a rebel without a clue ;D

 

[Show Dad]

DL - But he (RW) is a rebel with a cause 8). RW at least DL didn't say you were like Jerry Lewis  . You know her being in a non-cattle state and all. BTW DL is that anything like being in a state of flux or more of a catatonic state?

SD - I was gonna say Rebel with a Cow (which of course is the cause) - and since we don't have a budget in our state and the state may close down (how do you close a state - does that mean no one can come in? sure would put a damper on fall sales  ;D) it could be considered a state of flux; since I am allergic to cats it's not a catatonic state but it could be the state of denial - which I believe is south of Georgia - shortdawg would know, or maybe it is west of Kansas....

No de nile is a river in Egypt ;D. (Corny I know but I couldn't resist)

Now there is nothing west of Kansas. The world is flat (at least in Kansas) and you'll drop off if you go west of Elkhart.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Rebel with a cause - yeah I kind of like that. Definately a rebel any way, I guess the cause would be raising cattle that are good even when the politics aren't. Hmmmmm..... may be an add campaign starting here.

 

[DL]

Rebel with a cause - yeah I kind of like that. Definately a rebel any way, I guess the cause would be raising cattle that are good even when the politics aren't. Hmmmmm..... may be an add campaign starting here.

RW - please don't use Spears or Lohan or snotty nosed kids (or unmentionable items) in your campaign - rebel with the cause of good cattle - the cattle should sell themselves ;D

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Rebel with a cause - yeah I kind of like that. Definately a rebel any way, I guess the cause would be raising cattle that are good even when the politics aren't. Hmmmmm..... may be an add campaign starting here.

RW - please don't use Spears or Lohan or snotty nosed kids (or unmentionable items) in your campaign - rebel with the cause of good cattle - the cattle should sell themselves ;D

DL - Not to worry, all of the Hollywood hype and other questionable advertising icon B S doesn't do much for me. A respectable, tasteful add campain will suit me just fine.

 

[Joe Boy]

I like the cows that are 1350-1650 that have meat on their bones.  I do not like a tall long cow that in poor condition (skinny) weighs 1650 +  ....  My first fullblooded Maine was that, except she weighed 1800 skinny.  Her heifer calves were better because of down sizing with PB bulls but they would down size their calves too much.  I have sold all but two granddaughters now.  They are the smallest framed yearlings that I have, but their weight is right with the rest...which brings me to my point....  I do not want a red Holstein look to my cattle.  I am not selling milk but meat.  Her milk must be good to make her calf grow and for that calf to look beefy and not skin over bone.

Commercial breeders want their calves to grow and weigh out.  They want a calf that looks like it weighs 450 but actually weighs 550 to 600.  What EPD has that marking in it???????

 

[Show Heifer]

Its not an EPD Joe Boy, its a BREED, and it is called Limousin!! ;D

 

[Joe Boy]

Show Heifer are you saying I need to have Lemis rather than Maines?

My question is "What EPD shows that a calf will weigh more with a slightly smaller frame?"

The Chi-Angus heifers that I bought my kids to show 13 years ago still produce the heaviest calves in the herd.

 

[Show Heifer]

;D
Well, I guess you  could TRY them!!! (clapping) (clapping)

Take a look at my sale results and see what ya think. My cow herd is angus, angusXgelv, angusXlimi, and an odd shortie!

As far as EPD's, the angus has a yrl ht EPD, and now they have an energy epd which is suppose to measure how much grain it takes to care for them compared to the "average". And as you assume it is right...the bigger framed cattle have a higher energy number, the smaller cattle have a smaller number.
I think anymore you can EPD your cattle to death!!!! :-\

 

[justintime]

I personally think that some breeders have really messed up their herds by going overboard with EPDs... especially in the angus breed. I used to walk into the Denver pens of some major Angus breeders and marvel at the tremendous thick topped, deep sided, soggy bulls they had in the pens. Now I walk in, and see these round topped, finer boned, short bodied little bulls that are supposed to have tremendous carcass EPDs. Quite frankly, they are poor cattle, and I for one think they had much better cattle 10 years ago. I have also seen some real messes when cattlemen chase milk EPDs far too much. I strongly believe that too much milk is as bad or worse than too little milk in a herd. There is an opyimum point in all traits, and if you go too far, you start losing something. Selecting for too much milk usually leads to lose of fleshing ability and hardiness........ selecting for too much muscle usually ends up with loss of fertility and mothering ability. etc etc . EPDs are a tool, and only that.  It seems everything in life is best if used in moderation. I am beginning to think that EPDs fall into this catagory as well.