how do you deliver that hard/big calf?

[red]

This is sort of from Jill's comments about breaking a calf puller. The other day the hubby & I were faced w/ a calving problem. There was no one else around & we had a heifer calving. The front legs had been present for about 45 minutes. The nephew was about 1 1/2 hours away hauling grain.
We finally got her into a chute. She was the only one that had never been showed & did not want a halter put on. The hubby got the straps out & finally got one of the front legs secured. Now, when he does this he has to lean on the cow. If she moves he tends to lose his balance. The other front leg had worked itself back into her. He tried for a while but just couldn't get a grip on it. I tried next. I could just get a strap around the leg but couldn't work it up high enough for it to be secure. We worked on her for about an hour. Finally the nephew called & he was 1/2 hour away. We had to wait for him to arrive. He was able to just reach in & pull that leg out & put the stap around it. They used a come-along to pull the calf. It was 95 pounds & just too big for the heifer's pelvic.
The calf at first looked terrible. Her head was swollen & her back legs were crooked. However since then she is looking much better. In fact at first the hubby called her Ugly but has now changed it to Ultra. Both she & the cow are doing fine.
All in all it was a little discouraging to not be able to have the strength or ability between the two of us to deliver the calf. Wha have you run into? What do you do during a diffucult delivery?

Red

 

[knabe]

i've used the come-along attached to a brace that goes around the pelvis. we were always careful to "pull" the calf down towards the feet rather than directly out and try and time it with her if possible.  pulling a dead one out can be kind of traumatic.  if left in long enough, the hooves slide off and you start to panic.  i probably won't do it anymore and will call the vet if possible.  we have a "wet nurse" in the neighborhood and she's good at this kind of stuff.  biggest one i pulled was 160 pounds.  it was a black calf fullblood calf, maybe ildeno, out of an amerifax cow who was probably around 1600 pounds. pulled several others around 130, again mostly fullblood chi's out of cross cows.  episitomies are not fun, again why i would call the vet these days.

 

[chambero]

We have a "calving parlor" that is totally separate from our working/clipping barn.  Our calving parlor has a dirt floor with a pipe alley that connects to a very simple (and old) head chute that you can latch shut from behind the cow via a rope.  Its set up for one person to be able to operate it.  Once we catch the cows head, you can open up the sides to form a pen for mother and baby to stay in once everything is over.

We first try to pull wth chains.  The absolute hardest part is to get them around the legs up above the ankles so you don't hurt their joints.  We put the loop around the leg and then use a half hitch to spread out the pressure on the bone.  Most of the time, we can pull them by hand just using the chains.  If we can't, we hook up the calf puller.  The whole key I've learned is to pull down just as much or more than you pull out.  If using the puller, make sure you keep pulling down on that bar as you work the ratchet.

Another important thing I've learned is don't get in a hurry.  That wears you out worse than anythign.  Just relax and take your time.  Momma and calf will either be fine or they won't.  A few minutes (or even an hour) aren't going to make much difference in the outcome.

Unfortunately, calf pulling is a young persons game.  It is hard work no doubt about it.  My father-in-law gets frustrated that he can't do it much anymore.  Last year he blacked out while trying to pull one by himself.  I'm not around during the day the week, so he has about three local guys lined up to help if he calls.  One of them does a lot more than the others including helping to check them at night and early in the morning.  In return, my father-in-law give him the last heifer and calf that get calved out every year.  We think that's pretty cheap for helping calve out 40-60 heifers.

After getting the calf out, we hold it up by the back legs upside down to get that fluid out of its nose and mouth to help get it breathing.  Other than that, we let the cow go and get away from them to let mother nature take over.

We've never had a c-section done.  We've never had one we couldn't get out.  Sometimes we probably should have called the vet and it would have been easier on the cow.  We pulled a breech one out in the pasture last year.  It was hard on us and too hard on the cow.  We just had to keep working it.  The calf was already dead from what we could tell.  We wound up breaking its legs trying to get it out.  But there was no way to get her to a lot to get her in a trailer.  She was way too far away from facilities and was down.  We're lucky we even found her.

 

[simtal]

We have had success by tying a rope around a gate and the calf and stepping down on the rope.  seems to work pretty well just make sure the cow doesn't get up.

 

[justme]

since I'm here alone during the day and have to handle calving, my husband bought us one of those calving pens.  What a wonderful item to have.  Has the side pannel to lock cow in place, head catch, ect.  Even love the sides that go up to help the calf nurse.  We have a calf puller ready and usually I can get the cow in and the calf out without much problem.  Knock on wood, I'm probably jinxing myself.

 

[cowz]

We have a similar set up...I will share a couple of tricks that work for me.  The poor unfortunate souls that have met me know that I am a little short sawed-off person.

If you can get em caught in a head catch, put a poly halter on them, tie off leaving a good foot of leeway, then open the head catch.  Start pulling with chains, see if you can get her to lay down.  If you are working a tough pull, you have much better angles and torque to work with if they are laying down.  I do not have the upper body strength to turn the hips sideways if they are standing.  It is so much easier to turn the hips sideways on the calf if they are laying down.

The other trick (if you have help) is that a cow laying on her side cannot get up if someone sits on her neck or head.  I know this sounds crazy, but if a heifer is having a tough time, it is less stressfull to just toss a coat over their head, have an extra person sit on their neck (don't choke em) until you can see if you can pull it right there.  Obviously this is not a choice for a wild one!  Works if you are calving in a big pasture 1/2 mile from the nearest chute.!

 

[Hoof Hearted]

If your in decent  physical shape, Sullivans Supply makes a calf pulling strap that you put on the calfs feet like typical chains and then it goes around your waist and has handle loops. You can pull much harder with your leggs braced up against a chute than you can with those crappy little chain handles that your hands feel numb and worthless in 2 minutes. Since buying one of those straps I haven't used my ratchet calf puller in the last 3 years. One thing to note is NEVER put the strapes on the calf and around your waist on an animal that is not restrained, if they get up it can be one hell of a ride.(speaking from personal experience in a momentary lapse of brain activity) Another plus is I think they are still under $20.

 

[aj]

Cowz...what is your avatar of? I like to use a heavy(poles in ground) 16x16 foot pen. I rope female and tie her to a corner.I use chains and a heavy come along jack brace that braces up to her butt.You have the power if you need it. Then when they strain its best they lay down. Then you can pull down even up between their rear legs if needed untill it is time to rotate calfs hips to fit the pelvic area better. These are shorthorn cows so they are super dispositioned to work with. I have a quick release on the lariat to release with a flick of the mechanism. This is important cause alot of times they start to choke down. Best to have 2 people if possible. The hard part for me is fishing the loop over the cows head. I am a terrible roper. The calving pens they make now work the best. They have the swing away gates and everything. Last knew they were about 2000$. The 16x16 pen seems to be large enough to avoid calf from getting stepped on and etc. I just hate to have a straining cow go down in the chute I guess.

 

[kanshow]

DH started using a horse halter to restrain them last year because they don't choke off.  He runs them up chute and does it  or puts a lariat on & then slips the horse halter on, ties it off and releases the neck rope.  He thought it worked better than the regular rope halters.  We don't like to use just a lariat to restrain because they do choke off.  Our calving area has all swing aways because it seems they always go down in the worst possible place otherwise.    However, even the best calving area & equipment do no good when you have to pull one out in the open.

I did notice there is now a quick release rope halter on the market.  Has anyone tried those? 

 

[Jill]

We have a WW L shaped pen and alley that all shuts down on itself to make a narrow pen at the end, ours are the open bar type so there is plenty of access, and quick release when the calf is out.  We use a stone puller and chains, we have tried the strap but it wasn't as easy to get on, my husband usually ends up down on the ground to get the correct directional pull on the calf.  We don't really have many hard pulled and haven't ever had a C-section, our cow/calves are pretty valuable, many are embryo so if in doubt, we don't hesitate to pull.

 

[Bawndoh]

Now I understand, as does everyone else, that s%@t happens!  Especally when calving!  The thing I just DO NOT understand, is that nobody gets that birthweight often has little to do with calving problems in the first place.  We usually keep 120-160 red angus and RAx cows around every year.  They almost NEVER get into the yard, and are often ranging on 160-320 acres all winter.  They are anywhere from 100-1400lbs, and are never fat when they calve (get plenty of exercise).  I realize that having cows out in pastures during calving is impossible for many, but why not 5 or 10 acres.  They are not laying hens, they are cattle, and roaming is part of their natural instincts. 
Anyways...when I was 16 my dad sent me on a 3 hour trip to a ranch to pick out a bull.  I ended up choosing a bull (red angus), that had a birthweight of 98lbs, and his sire was pretty consistent for this weight.  So we were destined for larger calves.  The next spring came, and NOT ONE of the 1000-1400 lb. cows had a problem calving.  The biggest calf was probably in the 105-110lb range, and got up and took off as soon as it hit the ground.  So the reason I was confident in choosing that red angus bull was all in his shoulders.  He was a huge hipped "bastard" for a RA, but he had smooth shoulders.  The club calf industry is a huge enemy in that calves have to be stout, and stouter, and the stoutest!!!  When a calf is coming throught the birth canal, front legs, the head, and the shoulders have to come out at the same time exactly.  So coarse shoulders and heavy bone are the killer here.  IMO its pretty bad when you have to assist a mature cow.  With the exception of dystocia. 
My question is, why do you as breeders still insist on breeding your cattle for so much bone and stoutness, and still torturing yourselves with having to "survive" calving season??  Is it really worth that next champion??

 

[SWMO]

Like Chambero we have a calving facility.  Pen with a self catch headgate and a side that opens completely back and out of the way if we have to lay a cow down.  I agree don't get in a hurry it doesn't help anybody.  Our main concern on a hard pull is to not damage the cow. we very rarely lose a calf but I would rather lose the calf that lose the cow and the calf.  We have had to pull some big ones from time to time over the years.  It usually is after several years of using good common sense with our choice of bulls that we have a real brain fart and use a questionable bull on heifers.  History does seem to repeat itself.

 

[DL]

kinda explains why all the clubby guys are young - get to a certain age and ya just don't have the strength to pull those big shouldered big butted big boned dead babies out of clubby small pelvic area heifers

my system is a bit like justmes - I have a couple of calving pens with calving gates and little head catchy things - although if I need to check a cow most of the time I can just halter them

I much prefer going out to check and finding a bouncing baby - like bawndoh I don't get it - calving time should be fun not torture  doesn't mean we all don't have to assist now and again but we should learn from our mistakes

I'm with SWMO too - with a hard pull the goal should be to not harm the cow  - people get so excited about getting the calf out they do some (IMO) really studip things - ie attaching a calf to the tractor and pulling - aghhhhhhhhh

red I think the trick is good restraint, good footing for both, and patience - and the vet on speed dial

 

[chambero]

Now I understand, as does everyone else, that s%@t happens!  Especally when calving!  The thing I just DO NOT understand, is that nobody gets that birthweight often has little to do with calving problems in the first place.  We usually keep 120-160 red angus and RAx cows around every year.  They almost NEVER get into the yard, and are often ranging on 160-320 acres all winter.  They are anywhere from 100-1400lbs, and are never fat when they calve (get plenty of exercise).  I realize that having cows out in pastures during calving is impossible for many, but why not 5 or 10 acres.  They are not laying hens, they are cattle, and roaming is part of their natural instincts. 
Anyways...when I was 16 my dad sent me on a 3 hour trip to a ranch to pick out a bull.  I ended up choosing a bull (red angus), that had a birthweight of 98lbs, and his sire was pretty consistent for this weight.  So we were destined for larger calves.  The next spring came, and NOT ONE of the 1000-1400 lb. cows had a problem calving.  The biggest calf was probably in the 105-110lb range, and got up and took off as soon as it hit the ground.  So the reason I was confident in choosing that red angus bull was all in his shoulders.  He was a huge hipped "bastard" for a RA, but he had smooth shoulders.   The club calf industry is a huge enemy in that calves have to be stout, and stouter, and the stoutest!!!  When a calf is coming throught the birth canal, front legs, the head, and the shoulders have to come out at the same time exactly.  So coarse shoulders and heavy bone are the killer here.  IMO its pretty bad when you have to assist a mature cow.  With the exception of dystocia. 
My question is, why do you as breeders still insist on breeding your cattle for so much bone and stoutness, and still torturing yourselves with having to "survive" calving season??  Is it really worth that next champion??

We don't.  Our cows have to calve in the pasture.  Out of around 200 that calved last fall, we pulled exactly one - because it was a breech.  Our cows have to take care of themselves.  We bring our heifers to "town" to calve.  Out of 44 head calved out, we might have assisted on less than 10.  And I can only think of one of those the heifer might not have gotten out on her own.  When we assist, its usually because we aren't wanting to wait around so we can go do something else.  Maybe others have a lot worse experience, but none of the friends I have that raise show calves have a highly unusual amount of calving problems.  But we are all running our cows in Texas on native or coastal bermuda pastures.  We don't have them very fat ever, especially during calving.  We get the occasional big one, but that happens whether you are messing with show cattle or not.

 

[red]

DL, I think what was lacking was good balance & more arm strenghth than I can provide.

When I worked at a dairy I was amazed at how rough they were pulling calves. It was nothing to get the jack & just give a yank & not care how far along the cow was in labor. Not much effort was made to insure the calf got it's colustrum either. Might be why that dairyman is not in business too.

Red

 

[Jill]

We don't deliver in a pasture situation because the coyotes would have them before they are dry, we live right on the edge of the city and as the houses went up the coyotes headed our way.  We don't generally loose any calves calving, and can't afford to do so either, once we see feet and the sack has broken, if they are not making progress pretty quickly we will assist, no hard pulls on the mature cows, but we do get those babies out of there.

 

[chambero]

A lot of people underestimate the threat of coyotes during calving.  We lost a calf about day old this year to them.  We saw the calf up and walking in the afternoon and the next morning we spooked a couple of coyotes off his carcass.  We don't really hunt or try to eradicate coytes, but we do start shooting at them before and during calving season to discourage them.  But we don't have any houses around though. 

 

[Jill]

We have shot 7 since the beginning of calving season, they are used to people and run the hedge row between our pastures.

 

[Bawndoh]

This is when you feel aweful proud of those cows that get rather "phyco" during calving season.  I dont think a coyote will mess with one of them....the dog stays pretty far away!!

 

[kanshow]

We have a coyote problem here too.    They are very bold, we've seen them come right into the heifer pen by the house while we are out feeding.    DH's friend got rid  of some but  there are still at least 2 that I've seen since.    

Oh and our best 'coyote cow' is one that our daughter was going to show a few years ago but the little rip got pretty nasty so we kicked her out to pasture.