how fat should breed females be?

[jbzdad]

one of the other threads mentioned that the judge in SA was critical of overly fat females (not market heifers) ... I noticed when I was in Denver both the heifers and the bulls were definitely not in their working clothes.... should the breed organizations instruct the judges for the shows they manage to really devalue overly finished breeding stock? I would rather see the cattle in a less "finished" state RE  BCS 6?

 

[red]

one of the other threads mentioned that the judge in SA was critical of overly fat females (not market heifers) ... I noticed when I was in Denver both the heifers and the bulls were definitely not in their working clothes.... should the breed organizations instruct the judges for the shows they manage to really devalue overly finished breeding stock? I would rather see the cattle in a less "finished" state RE   BCS 6?

will never happen. as long as judges pick fat or cattle that are definitely older than the age recorded it will continue.

Red

 

[LN]

I agree, will never happen. That's was one judge's opinion, and others have that opinion too, but who are they to say how we feed and present our show cattle?

 

[jbzdad]

OK... but does the AMAA for instance have the authority to instruct the judges regarding such a standard?

 

[red]

OK... but does the AMAA for instance have the authority to instruct the judges regarding such a standard?

I seriously doubt it. They can select judges for their national shows but there are no set rules as far as I know on condition/ ect...

Red

 

[jbzdad]

Red... i know there isn't now.... but should there be?Do you think the industry would be better at supporting the working cattle and improving working cattle if defects weren't "hidden" under finish?

 

[jimmyski]

As a judging coach and person that has the opportunity to judge many fairs and shows, this topic comes up quite often for discussion. First of all, I sure hope that a breed association never has the power to tell a judge what he should place more emphasis on. That would be ridiculous. Secondly, I believe that there is a very good chance that I will never judge a large breed show and to be honest it doesn't really matter that much to me. Why you ask? Well, it's because I hate FAT Breeding Heifers and BRED Fat Heifers.

This is one topic that I will get on my soapbox about during a show and let you know how exactly I feel. So, I guess I could stay quiet and maybe have the opportunity to judge one of these much larger shows or I could continue to educate people on effects of overfeeding a breeding heifer and the damages it can do. Sorry about the rant, as you can see when it comes to this topic, I easily get fired up. I think we can have a happy medium b/w what I consided strictly show cattle and ranch cattle. We all know that fat can help them look better but do they need to reach the point of being a finished market animal before we realize the harm we are doing?

Thanks for reading.

Jim Latoski

 

[jbzdad]

Jim I am with you... I think you are exactly correct.. but if I am advising Suzy Q in my 4-H group how to get her heifer prepared how do I know if you are going to be the judge or some guy that won't place her unless her heifer looks like a market steer... it isn't something like hair dye that can be put on or taken off depending on the judge

 

[shortyjock89]

Jim I am with you... I think you are exactly correct.. but if I am advising Suzy Q in my 4-H group how to get her heifer prepared how do I know if you are going to be the judge or some guy that won't place her unless her heifer looks like a market steer... it isn't something like hair dye that can be put on or taken off depending on the judge

We try to keep our heifers in the middle of the road condition-wise.  I HATE getting one overly fat, but I also know that we're gonna get stomped at state and nationals unless they have some fat.  We don't always win, but we do pretty good at the big shows. Nine times out of ten at county fairs, our heifers aren't fat enough for the "hot-shot, college boy" types that come around. 

Jimmyski- I hope that we can get some of your guys and gals (or ones like them) judging our county shows around here in the next few years. I'm getting tired of having my heifers place lower at county than they do at nationals.  Keep up the good fight.

 

[jimmyski]

Justin,

I understand your dilema entirely. I've judged some fairly competitive county fairs that have had a few families that show nationally and they had their heifers way too fat and I beat them in class. Much to my surprise the families were actually very cordial even though they were dissapointed.

That's the most difficult part, they come to county fair and I tell them that their heifers are too fat and then they go onto the Junior National and their cattle aren't even the fattest there. I understand that fat can cover up some flaws/problems with the animal, but I would much rather get beat showing a heifer I know will hold up and breed than win at the expense of reproductive, milking, and structural problems that can easily come about from overfeeding.

So all in all, this is a topic that everyone is most definitely not going to agree on but it's one that I feel needs to be addressed by the entire cattle industry. We can continue to overfeed and ruin some of the best cattle in the world or we can decide to back off just a little and allow these animals to continue to supply excellent genetics for many years to come.

 

[kanshow]

Hard to figure out where to be condition wise.  I've never seen the thinnest heifer win, but have been beat by the fattest one plenty of times.

 

[Jill]

I don't know where show ring animals "should be" but I can tell you 99 time out of 100 if you ain't got fat pockets you're in the bottom half.  With that being said, I hope the breed associations never take it upon themselves to tell someone what type of heifers to select, that is what you hire a judge for and if you don't want his opinion, hire a different judge.

 

[box6rranch]

Great topic! We've definitely been there. Have a fantastic 3 year old bull that we would have loved to show at National Western. But we've taken the  "go out and breed" stance and he comes in at fall. He has made some amazing calves and we don't think he looks bad at all. But if we would have showed him, he would have been totally outsized by bulls who have never bred and sit around and get fat all day.
Same goes with the heifers. Two year olds showing as yearlings. Need a judge with guts to say they are too old and should have a calf by their side. One show couldn't believe a judge picked a heifer above us that literally was so fat she wiggled and jiggled and could barely walk. Don't even know if she could breed that fat.
Hard to get over the "bigger the better" mentality.

 

[CAB]

Part of the sad reality is that some of these "fat" heifers never have to raise a calf. They just have to produce embryos today and the same goes for all the hyped up AI sires. If they happen to get enough publicity they can be a one & done. Does it amaze very many of you, the # of young hyped up AI sires that somehow seem to meet an unfortunate untimely early demise?
  If the associations get involved in deciding which type/size of cattle need to win, they may as well just judge all of the shows themselves. I don't see it happening in the near future.

 

[MYT Farms]

Good topic to have going. I HATE, HATE, HATE!!!!!!! grain fattened breeding cattle. Bulls probably more than heifers because I hate to go buy a bull that's been on grain and been winning shows only to have him fall to pieces in my program. Now, I don't mind a fat cow. My heifer that's been on grass all winter with no supplementing is fat as a tick. Then again, that's genetics, and she stuck her first time coming to the A.I. barn because it was "natural" fat.

 

[box6rranch]

Part of the sad reality is that some of these "fat" heifers never have to raise a calf. They just have to produce embryos today and the same goes for all the hyped up AI sires. If they happen to get enough publicity they can be a one & done. Does it amaze very many of you, the # of young hyped up AI sires that somehow seem to meet an unfortunate untimely early demise?
   If the associations get involved in deciding which type/size of cattle need to win, they may as well just judge all of the shows themselves. I don't see it happening in the near future.





You have a good point there. It does seem like the hyped up bulls die earlier. I'll keep my just right weight bull. Maybe someday folks will be able to see and appreciate his offspring and he'll make a name for himself. Rather have him alive then have a bunch of semen stashed in a tank that's for sure!!!

 

[braunvieh]

Great topic! Got me thinking about our breed shows....do you guys give out EPDs to the judges? We do along with DOB and the judge has the choice to use or not to use.

I am totally a fan of not showing fat heifers, we only show what we intend to take home and use in our herd so they are really replacement heifers, not show heifers. However, should a heifer be discounted for good performace? A heifer that is obviously bigger than the others (with a legit DOB) but not fat? Esp. if her EPDs match her performance? It is disappointing to hear you have the highest performing heifer who is functionally sound but is placed low....that I cannot understand.

I'm curious to hear what others think of this.

 

[kanshow]

The judge has the EPD's at the breed shows.    Generally, I don't think they count for much in the final placement.    At the state Jr show last year, the judge lined them all up and then went back to look at EPDs.  He didn't change the lineup at all.. so am guessing he was just making sure that no one had a -30 CE or weaning number...  JMO tho..    If they really did use EPD's what would they do with a bunch of ET sisters?    Also I'm not so sure that the pedigree isnt' right there along with the EPD on that judge's sheet. 

 

[red]

the Maines don't have EPD's at Louisville. Not sure about the other shows. I've never shown where they are posted.

Red

 

[kanshow]

I would guess it is breed and show specific.  I personally don't like it.