I am having a conversation with a family that has been in the beef project for 2 years now. Their calf has only gained 100#'s in the last 104 days. At this rate they will not make weight for their fair which starts July 23. She is feeding this calf 37 pounds of grain at night(29#s grain and 8#'s of steamed flake corn plus 4 oz of corn oil) he cleans it up within 45 min. She feeds him hay in the morning. The calf weighs 875#'s. Can you feed to much grain and have the animal stop gaining like he should? Is less really more? How does that work? They wormed 30 days ago, the calf is not sick he eats everything they give him. They are going to start upping his grain every 5 days by 1#, I am trying to talk them out of it. But she thinks that it is working. I did talk them out of jackpotting him. Any ideas?
How much grain is to much grain?
- Thread starter mommacow
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Jill
Well-known member
1. They need to split the grain between 2 feedings rather than just once a day. Does the calf have the major squirts? that feed has to be going somewhere and it is obviously not going into gain.
We normally push ours until they make weight and then go into a holding pattern, that is about what we feed split twice a day, what I have always heard is what the calf will clean up in a 15 minute period of time and free choice hay. I don't think they will stop gaining, they will get the runs, shut off eating or worse case scenario they will founder.
We normally push ours until they make weight and then go into a holding pattern, that is about what we feed split twice a day, what I have always heard is what the calf will clean up in a 15 minute period of time and free choice hay. I don't think they will stop gaining, they will get the runs, shut off eating or worse case scenario they will founder.
DLD
Well-known member
First of all, what exactly is this "grain" they're feeding? There's a world of difference in a mixed feed with a large percentage of cottonseed hulls, or soy hull pellets or beet pulp or ground hay or straw and one that's mostly actual grain (corn, oats, barley, etc...). No matter what the exact makeup of the feed, though, 37# at one feeding for an 875# calf is an awful lot.
Of course there's no way he's going to eat anywhere near that amount more than once a day - if you let him have a huge feeding the night before, he won't want any grain the next morning. It's unusual that he'll eat that much again the next night. As Jill said, his body simply cannot utilize that amount of grain at one time. He needs to be fed at least twice day, and feeding three or four times a day will usually optimize gain in one that's gaining slowly. Feed him what he'll eat in 15 minutes, and take the rest away. We usually feed hay either free choice or a flake around noon and/or bedtime in cattle we feed twice a day - remember, it needs to be in addition to, not instead of his grain. And not alfalfa or other "rich" hays - they're not conducive to big adg's - for that you need just a good grass for roughage, the grain will provide the gain. I know it's tough to back off the total pounds fed to one you need to gain better, but less feed more often should be utilized so much better.
David
Of course there's no way he's going to eat anywhere near that amount more than once a day - if you let him have a huge feeding the night before, he won't want any grain the next morning. It's unusual that he'll eat that much again the next night. As Jill said, his body simply cannot utilize that amount of grain at one time. He needs to be fed at least twice day, and feeding three or four times a day will usually optimize gain in one that's gaining slowly. Feed him what he'll eat in 15 minutes, and take the rest away. We usually feed hay either free choice or a flake around noon and/or bedtime in cattle we feed twice a day - remember, it needs to be in addition to, not instead of his grain. And not alfalfa or other "rich" hays - they're not conducive to big adg's - for that you need just a good grass for roughage, the grain will provide the gain. I know it's tough to back off the total pounds fed to one you need to gain better, but less feed more often should be utilized so much better.
David
red
Well-known member
That is a lot of corn oil too. I surprised he is not as loose as a goose!
Something is not getting utilized, I wonder what the manure looks like during the day? Are they usung a buffer in the mixure? Like baking soda or something similar? also how fine is the grind? If it's too fine it may be passing & they not seeing it.
How is his coat & condition? Any temp?
Red
Something is not getting utilized, I wonder what the manure looks like during the day? Are they usung a buffer in the mixure? Like baking soda or something similar? also how fine is the grind? If it's too fine it may be passing & they not seeing it.
How is his coat & condition? Any temp?
Red
OH Breeder
Well-known member
One thing I have found with the show calves and grain is making sure to keep the Probiotics restored. Or make sure his gut has plenty of bacteria. If they fall off on appetite I always give them a bolus of priobiotics. Now we do it on a regular schedule. They get burned out on grain. We feed ours 25#'s a feeding because they clean it up. Free choice hay. Water in the evening and morning before they go in under fans. Definitely need to think of smaller quanitites of grain and give him a bolus of probiotics you can get a TSC. Gel in a tube. Some folks will buy granules and feed year round.
Jill
Well-known member
I guess I jumped ahead of myself, but the 1st thing really should be what is the grain they are feeding. We feed a complete feed and I guess I just assumed that everyone does, I should know better, find that out 1st that may determine what the issue really is.
CAB
Well-known member
Definately have the calf in a state of almost sure overload @ night. I think I would start by backing off the one feeding to slightly less than half of what they are feeding once per day, going to a twice a day feeding, as close to 12 hrs apart as possible. Assuming that the ration is balanced, a calf of this size should eat between 2 & 3% of his body wt. Full feed will be whatever he can eat in 15 to 20 minutes, (just a rule of thumb). Free choice of long stemmed grass hay is OK, but if your goal is maximum gain, it's all about dry matter intake. The only reason for hay is to keep the rumen healthy ie. scratch the rumen walls. You may not need any hay if there is cotton seed hulls, whole oats, or soy hulls ( something like this) you wouldn't neccesarily need the hay. The way that you described the feeding schedule, my guess is that the calf is or is close to being acidonic, therefore needing a buffer to help with PH. Kind of need to back down and get the stomache restarted. Pushing & keeping one calf on feed is harder than feeding ten for instance, because you have to be so intune to what the calf is telling you by what they eat and act. If you have 10 calves eating from a bunk & one calf is off feed for a 1/2 a day , the other 9 will devide his portion where as if there are 2 on a bunk and one doesn't eat one feeding, the next day the other calf is way off feed. IMO back up and start slowly with 2 daily feeding times. Good luck. Cab
red
Well-known member
Why won't the calf eat only one feeding? Can they have it eat w/ another calf? a big slug of feed once a day is the worst thing they can be doing.
I agree w/ CAB on the buffer & the Oh B on the probiotics. Both are good choices.
I agree w/ CAB on the buffer & the Oh B on the probiotics. Both are good choices.
We put cattle on bulk feeders all the time and let them eat free choice. They gain through the roof like that. I don't know why once a day feeding won't work.
Something doesn't add up right here. A calf eating that much feed should be gaining more than that if they were eating cardboard. I'll bet you a nickel they aren't weighing their feed right. If they are weighing their feed, something is just plain wrong with that calf.
I'd suggest switching the calf to whole corn with free access to hay (to avoid stomach upsets and foundering) to see what happens. That's almost what many of the feedlots do. Something dramatic is needed to ever "get there". Show calf feeds have to much other junk to maximize gain. One year we had a couple of calves that weren't getting fat quick enough for slick shear shows. The last 90 days or so we turned them out at night to a bulk feeder full of straight ground corn. They ate their normal ration during the day, and went to town on the corn at night. They jumped through themselves. Of course that was in winter, not sure if there might be problems with heat in summer or not.
Something doesn't add up right here. A calf eating that much feed should be gaining more than that if they were eating cardboard. I'll bet you a nickel they aren't weighing their feed right. If they are weighing their feed, something is just plain wrong with that calf.
I'd suggest switching the calf to whole corn with free access to hay (to avoid stomach upsets and foundering) to see what happens. That's almost what many of the feedlots do. Something dramatic is needed to ever "get there". Show calf feeds have to much other junk to maximize gain. One year we had a couple of calves that weren't getting fat quick enough for slick shear shows. The last 90 days or so we turned them out at night to a bulk feeder full of straight ground corn. They ate their normal ration during the day, and went to town on the corn at night. They jumped through themselves. Of course that was in winter, not sure if there might be problems with heat in summer or not.
I agree with chambero - if they are weighing the grain right and the calf isn't gaining then there is an issue with the calf (and I would say a serious issue) - I have seen Johne's disease (although unusual in a calf of this age) and persistent infection with BVDV cause problems in calves of this age.....if he is really getting and eating all that feed and not gaining he needs to be seen by a vet......
red
Well-known member
Good point on weighing the grain! Make sure the scales are correct & same measurements used each time.
I guess I was thinking that was a big slug of grain eaten in a quick amount of time. If it's 37 pounds eaten in 45 minutes he's bound to have rumen problems. We too fed our feedlot steers once a day but they eat it through-out the day not all at once.
Mommacow- definitely suggest t them to get a vet's second opinion. check on weights of feed & make sure not ground too fine.
Hope they can get some weight put on him!
Red
I guess I was thinking that was a big slug of grain eaten in a quick amount of time. If it's 37 pounds eaten in 45 minutes he's bound to have rumen problems. We too fed our feedlot steers once a day but they eat it through-out the day not all at once.
Mommacow- definitely suggest t them to get a vet's second opinion. check on weights of feed & make sure not ground too fine.
Hope they can get some weight put on him!
Red
AAOK
Well-known member
Two things I haven't seen mentioned
1. Most calves are not the quality to become Show Calves! Many steers which may look good, are not good convertors, and therfore will not gain as they should.
2. A Quality Mineral is essential for proper feed conversion, and overall health of the animal. No feed will work well without it.
As to their feeding, I'll align with David. Feed twice a day, approximately 12 hours apart (15 lbs. should be sufficient), and clean out what they haven't eaten in 15 minutes.
1. Most calves are not the quality to become Show Calves! Many steers which may look good, are not good convertors, and therfore will not gain as they should.
2. A Quality Mineral is essential for proper feed conversion, and overall health of the animal. No feed will work well without it.
As to their feeding, I'll align with David. Feed twice a day, approximately 12 hours apart (15 lbs. should be sufficient), and clean out what they haven't eaten in 15 minutes.
I absolutely agree that not every calf is a show calf no matter how good your cows and bulls. However, that calf is reportedly not even gaining a pound a day. The sorriest calf in any commercial pasture - even those just on grass - should be able to gain a lot more than that unless they are sick are absolutely being starved. Something is wrong here either with the calf or how they are weighing their feed or the calf.
DLD
Well-known member
Lot's of good info above. I'd agree that they need to double check the weight of the feed first of all.
The once a day thing does work on some cattle, if they eat it throughout the day it just works like a self feeder. But if they eat it all at once, it might do more harm than good. If he's healthy (rumen working like it should), he will eat grain twice a day, you just have to change his habits - right now he's used to once a day so he pigs out and then isn't hungry if it's offered the next morning. To begin with, I'd take him completely off grain for three or four days. During that time, give only good quality grass hay and get some probios in him. Then start him back with 10 lbs of grain morning and night (as close to 12 hours apart as possible), taking away everything he doesn't clean up in fifteen minutes. Once he gets to cleaning that up regularly, you can increase a little (a half pound at a time) until he doesn't clean it up, then back off half a pound and leave it there for a week and try upping it again.
Dan did point out something very important - a good quality mineral is essential. We top dress with Moormans/Fast Forward #1 Show Mineral at each feeding. Some sacked show calf feeds have everything a calf needs, some don't. We have ours custom mixed, and I'm just more comfortable with the top dress method, but you could also have it added to the mix. We've never used a buffer, never felt like we needed to, but I sure wouldn't hesitate to do so if the situation called for it.
David
The once a day thing does work on some cattle, if they eat it throughout the day it just works like a self feeder. But if they eat it all at once, it might do more harm than good. If he's healthy (rumen working like it should), he will eat grain twice a day, you just have to change his habits - right now he's used to once a day so he pigs out and then isn't hungry if it's offered the next morning. To begin with, I'd take him completely off grain for three or four days. During that time, give only good quality grass hay and get some probios in him. Then start him back with 10 lbs of grain morning and night (as close to 12 hours apart as possible), taking away everything he doesn't clean up in fifteen minutes. Once he gets to cleaning that up regularly, you can increase a little (a half pound at a time) until he doesn't clean it up, then back off half a pound and leave it there for a week and try upping it again.
Dan did point out something very important - a good quality mineral is essential. We top dress with Moormans/Fast Forward #1 Show Mineral at each feeding. Some sacked show calf feeds have everything a calf needs, some don't. We have ours custom mixed, and I'm just more comfortable with the top dress method, but you could also have it added to the mix. We've never used a buffer, never felt like we needed to, but I sure wouldn't hesitate to do so if the situation called for it.
David
From when I talked to them last, they are reducing the amount of grain and going to feed him 2 times a day. They went and got a mineral lick. I just want this little girl to make weight with the calf, she has worked hard and gave up all of her other animal projects to do this one so this is it. Thanks for all of your information and I will let you know how it turns out.
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