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Show Heifer

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Just watched a blurb on CNN about the crash site of flight 93 on 9-11.  The families of those that were killed when the plane went down are DEMANDING that the land owner sell them 2000 acres (he only owns 273) for the $50 million dollar memorial to their families. The landowner said he wanted a fair price for the roughly 268 acres and that he would not accept money for the actually 4 acres that was the crash site and temporary memorial. He said "it wouldn't me right to accept money for those few acres. But I do want fair compensation for the others." 
After money ran out for securty 6 months ago, the landowner has paid $10,000 per month (his figure) for security for the memorial that is there already. He set up a donation box, AND THE FAMILIES WERE OUTRAGED. "How dare he profit from my cousins' death."  So the national park service (what the hell are they involved for anyway??????) covered the box.  :mad:
So my brain is thinking: If this is privately held land, and he doesn't want to sell, or sell for what they are offering (which is $500,000) then TOUGH CRAP. This is still America and if he doesn't want to sell, then he should have the right to refuse any and all offers. 
Yeah, its too bad they died and died in such a horrible, yet honorable way. But "heros" die every day, and they don't get a federal memorial. Let alone a movie made about them. I would say they should be happy the landowner has tolerated their presents this much.
Landowners apparently have no rights anymore.....I just cannot handle anymore of this kind of crap.  :mad:

So, am I a cold hearted wretch? What do you all think??
 

red

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I'm confused, how can he sell them more ground than he owns? It wasn't his fault the plane went down there? I had read about the donation box, not sure who got the money. Would think if the park rangers got into it the govn't should be buying thr ground. Not really big on memorial places anyway. That's not where I'd want my love one remembered. Same as the roadside grave markers of accident victims. Never liked them.

Red
 

farmboy

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OF COURSE NOT
IF A TERRORIST CRASHED A PLANE ON MY 80 ACRES, I WOULDN'T SELL IT TO THE FAMILES OF THE PEEPS THAT DIED.
SURE, A MEMORIAL IS ALL HONERABLE AND STUFF BUT IF THEY WANT TO TAKE DOWN THIS guys home THAN WHATS HE GONNA DO

MAYBE THEY CAN GET A FEW ACRES ROUGHLY 20-30. HOW MUCH DO THEY NEED?. COME ON, ITS A MEMORIAL.I WOULDNT BE ON THIS GUYS BACK FOR LAND HE DOSN'T OWE.
 

knabe

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here's the deal.  no johnny two bit politician will get up in front of those people and say tough toooty.  in a town near me, they have outlawed roadside memorials because they are causing a safety concern.  two near my place both involved kids under 18 drinking and death, evading the cops in one, the other ran through a tee in the road and got airborn for 200 feet.  the memorial's make me sick because they deserved it, but oh how we heard endlessly how they were great kids, on and on and on.  it's time america elected officials with a little tough love.  so don't get pissed, get elected.  which by the way, i'm going to try and run for state assembly with only a door to door campaign and this is my platform.

no new laws, no new sources of revenue, enforce the law, comply with federal regulations.  how much knowledge does one need to vote no on communism.
well, ok, it will be a little longer, but not much.

i say for that much money, there should be an airplane reflying that route over and over inperpetuity.

turn outrage into action, get involved.  before it's too late.
 

red

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This off topic ( so what is new?) & a little morbid but has anyone thought about what they want done w/ their body after they die?
My grandparents both were cremated & we scattered their ashes under a tree in the psture. Very nice but doesn't give people a place to go to later if they want to. I've always said that I want to be cremated & my ashes scattered in the lot w/ my cows. Am I morbid? hubby says fine since he is not one for visiting graves & to put it nicely my daughter will probably never come to see me anyway.
Any thoughts?

Red
 

knabe

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that is interesting red.  i just made a cemetary video tour of our family's grave sites with commentary by my aunt.  for a while i was thinking ashes, cuz i was so against falling in line.  i have been to a couple funerals lately, including my grandmother who just missed turning 100.  i got film of me reading a poem at the funeral, then the tour,  gonna give it out at christmas this year.  the gravesites are for history, so what i think i'll try to do is bury my ashes at the grave site, along with space for others within the same space.  kinda saves on space.  we'll see what happens.  my neighbor died recently too, and since CA is so new, relatively speaking compared to the midwest, they don't have plots prepurchased for a family close together.  on my mom's side,they can't stand going to the cemetary, or funerals.  the other side, it becomes a geneology fest.  i keep memento's like ribbons and stuff, touch the coffin.  my cousin when she was young asked if she could touch our great grandpa.  her mom said ok.  she said, in typical kid fashion, "it's all hard and cold.  i miss grandpa."

when we were at our grandmother's funeral, we were sitting off to the side, out of view of the minister in the direct family section.  my daughter, then barely 4 said, "is that god talking?"  man did i cry.
 

chambero

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This isn't comparable with the roadside memorials.  Those are ridiculous - usually commemorating somebody that wasn't doing what they were supposed to.

The National Park Service is charged with managing any federal properties like this.  Its obvious there will be a memorial at the crash site.

Like it or not, imminent domain can be invoked here.  I see no problem with invoking it if necessary to create a memorial site of appropriate size.  I doubt the accuracy of whoever reported that they were trying to get 2K acres.  That is huge and the NPS does not have the money to take care of what they already have.  

We've done the same thing with battlefields all across the country.  This isn't much different.

I work for a company that is often involved with reservoir development projects and we continually are involved in contentious issues with landowners.  I generally don't feel too sorry for them most of the time because the vast majority would sell in a heartbeat to the first private developer that came along with deep enough pockets.
 

farmboy

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BUT WHAT DO THEY NEED 2000 ACRES FOR ??? ITS A MEMORIAL..WELL UNLESS THEY WANTED A MEMORIAL PARK. BUT ITS STILL 2000 ACRES ???
 

knabe

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trying to be good natured here, but i don't think america thinks this is a battlefield yet, in terms of history.  america doesn't even know who the barbary pirates were and how long that lasted.  we are not aware of strawman arguments concerning culture, and only seek to be weak.  the crusades were in response to invasion, yet we have no capacity to discuss that in schools due to moral relativism. the truthers are in total denial.  this will be a nation changing point, similar to how FEMA was changed under clinton, reinforced by bush to further federalize our country, instead of putting ANY blame at the foot of the appropriate people. (new orleans was above sea level 200 years ago and has sunk 24-36 feet because it is on top of a peat bog with the water pumped out into lake ponch)  i can think of 200 million dollars specifially for levees that was spent elsewhere.  this was not the dopey bush's fault.  the nation will change, because we are going to federalize one ununiformed enemy against an ununiformed target and call this a federal site.  we will do this, but not treat ununiformed personnel as nonuniformed combabtants under the geneva convention, which is VERY specific.  it's amazing how war has essentially become ununiformed in my lifetime.  how war has become without bullets with our invasion and culture change at it's hands, and we celebrate it with a word called multiculturalism, but won't evaluate japan, saudi arabia, and other homogeneous societies under similar criteria.  our current evaluation of ourselves and the obsessive focus on our faults needs a deep voice, quickly.  it is too high right now and needs balance.

That said, i need to work on getting my heifers to lead better. ;D
 

Show Heifer

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Chambro: I usually agree with you, but have to disagree on this one!
If you are comparing this to a war memorial, then isn't the memorial being built at the twin towers site enough??
And since when is the NPS involved in privately held land?? The landowner  (IMO) has been nice enough to allow what he has so far (the memorial, the visits, trespassing on private land).
And as far as selling to a developer....IF the land owner WANTS to sell, and the developer agrees to the asking price, then so be it. But the land owner has the right to REFUSE the offer a developer offers, and there is the difference. That is where the "deep pockets" come into play.
And there IS a memorial at the crash site. What is wrong with THAT ONE??  Do they need a big fancy tax payer supported building to make THEM feel better about their family member???  And where do we draw the line? Should my cousin have a memorial because he was killed by a drunk driver?? He was a good, innocent person. So is HE worth a million dollar building? What about the guy who jumped in and saved 2 drowning children and in 6 months was killed in an accident....what does he deserve?

I live on a farm that has been in the family for darn near 200 years. I WON'T SELL IT FOR ANY REASON, OR ANY PRICE. So fair market value is irrelevant. There is no "fair" market value.  :mad:

I am NOT a fan of eminent domain...think it is a cheap way for the govt and private dev to take advantage of a land owner who doesn't want to sell. I think it is abused and should be illiminated. If ya want it, then buy it for whatever the seller is asking.

I don't know why they need 2000 acres....I guess they think they are "entitled" to it (geesh is that the Amercian way or what????) But that is what the AP radio report was. And this poor fella is in the middle of it. Maybe they should take some of the money the gov't gave them and buy their OWN memorial.....

As for roadside markers.....a bit silly. BUT....here a group of folks  goes around and puts of signs such as "killed because of drunk driving." or "Speeding killed this guy."  or "Killed by a drunk driver".   Sometimes they stay up, sometimes not, but I can guarantee those sign make a much bigger impact than a cross with a strangers name on it!!!

Knabe: You have my vote, where do I cast my ballot??? (clapping) (clapping)
 

red

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the Twin Towers & the flight 93 are two totally different places.
I guess, I need to read more to find out what's going on. I just can't imagine a memorial that big.
Anybody have a link to actual information?
Red
 

chambero

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Show Heifer - I don't know the particulars in this case.  If the Federal Gov't wanted to establish a federal memorial on the crash site - the NPS would be the agency that would make it happen.  I imagine that the current movement is actually the effort of a special interest group - i.e. the surviving families - to create a memorial.  They can't invoke imiment domain.  They can start a movement to get government support, but they can't do it by themselves.   And of course they don't need 2000 acres.  This isn't something that would be highly visited ever.

Imminent domain is a necessary evil.  Is it overused - of course.  But we wouldn't have the water supplies or road system that makes this country run efficiently without it. 

On a more general note, I'm under the impression that the families of 911 vicitims have received lots of compensation.  I have no idea what that involved, who, or how much, but I think I remember hearing that.  As deserving as they might be, they aren't any more deserving in my opinion than the families of other national-level tragedies we've had (i.e. the OKC bombing) or even our soldiers that are dying or being maimed daily.  This is an emotional issue for all involved and is a very sensitive political issue.  Imagine yourself a politician - with their real responsibilties - how do you deny such requests without being coming across as cold and uncaring.  At the same time - how much is too much.

If I had to pick, the victims of the plane crash were much more heroic in that they had the opportunity to act and they did.  Which saved other lives and property.  We should keep in mind that the tower victims didn't have that opportunity.


Modified by Red- I apologize Chambero.
 

DLD

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I've got to believe that 2000 acres almost has to be a typo (not saying it's yours Show Heifer). 200 is still pretty excessive - maybe 40 imo, and yes, the landowner needs to be fairly compensated for it. What's fair? There's really no other way to determine that but to have it appraised as it would be for sale and/or for a mortgage... Like Chambero, I believe immenent domain is a necessary evil, and if it comes down to it, it'll probably be invoked here.

I know the landowner didn't ask for the plane to crash there, but neither did the passengers that died. It's not the same thing as the Twin Towers, and it deserves it's own memorial. I think it's important that we maintain these reminders that we need to stay aware and vigilant of terrorism everywhere, even on our own soil. Becoming complacement to that could be a deadly mistake, one that Americans can ill afford to make.

Granted, some of those families are out to profit from it. That's a shame, but in most cases, they just want it remembered that their loved ones, along with many others, died for someones senseless "cause". Believe it or not, we (the families of those killed) find some peace in that, and in the hope that these memorials will keep everyone aware of what has happened, and can happen again if we're not careful...

David
 

knabe

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Imagine yourself a politician - with their real responsibilties - how do you deny such requests without being coming across as cold and uncaring.

appreciate your comments chambero. you hit the nail on the head.  politicians all the time posit what they want in the frame of it's for the children.  they use emotional blackmail.  it is not the governments role to compensate for things like this.  it's role is very narrowly defined in the constitution.  we are reinforcing the mommystate (no offense to women) and creating an attitude of looking to the government for everything.  we can only function on matching funds. we cant' do things without them.  it's time to say enough is enough.  reduce government starting with eliminating the federal education system carter started.  it's a failure, everyone knows it. kinda like the surgeon general position.  get rid of it so we can look to someone else not associated with the federal government for these very necessary feelings.
 

Show Heifer

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DLD, you mentioned "we (the families of those that were killed)....." are you a family member of someone who died on flight 93?? Please expand if you wish....

And Chambero, I agree whole heartedly....those folks on that plane are indeed heros for taking down the plane. Even more than those that were in the towers. I just have a concern over condemning one landowner for wanting to sell his land for whatever he is asking for it.

And I don't need a reminder to be vigilant...let alone a reminder that is thousands of miles away....I remember that day vividly. Remember every single second.....and for very different reasons.

I just question who decides when one person deserves a memorial and when one doesn't.....and I mean absolutely  NO disrespect to the folks that were on that flight.
 

red

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If I remember correctly, DLD had a nephew that was killed in the OK City bombing.
I might be wrong but hope he hasn't had more heartbreaks.

Red
 

TJ

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I just read the story on Yahoo.  They are going to build a 58 million dollar park  :eek: AND they are trying to purchase 1,300 acres :eek: !!  This gentleman owns the 2nd larget parcel, 273 acres, and a coal company owns 800+ acres. 

No doubt in my mind that a small park should be built on the crash site (maybe 25-50 acres), but 58 million dollars???  1,300 acres???  I'm sitting here shaking my head in total disbelief.     
 
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