I need help with the "New Shortie Math".

[Show Heifer]

Ok, I'm new to the shortie breed and am so confused.

A 7/8 shorthorn calf is NOT a purebred....they have to be 15/16 to be papered as a "purebred". So a registered bull bred to a commercial cow = a half-ish (not neccessarily - but lets go with that). Breed that heifer calf to a registered bull and you have a 3/4 blood.  Breed that heifer to a registered bull and you get a 7/8, again NOT able to register as a "purebred".

BUT....

You have a RED MAINE ANJOU cow/heifer that has NO shorthorn blood in her, and you can have her registered as a 3/4 blood SHORTHORN. Then  breed her to a registered bull, and BAM all of a sudden you have a 15/16 calf and THAT can be registered as a purebred shorthorn with only 50% shorthorn blood.


What am I missing except that it must depend on how you are and how many friends you have on the board in order to get things registered????

And please....this is not a slam against the office workers. They have explained it to me to the best of their ability to read the rule book.  But still, does this not defy all logic to anyone else???

 

[shortdawg]

Your situation with the Maine is b/c of the Maine genetics. There was an article in Shorthorn Country a couple of years ago that stated the relationship with Maines and Shorthorns. It said that any given Maine was at the least 3/8 or 5/8 (?) Shorthorn. That would explain why you could get back to 15/16 quicker using Maines instead of other breeds or commercial cattle.

 

[shortyjock89]

I was always under the impression that it had to be a Fullblood Maine that was 3/4ths Shorthorn.  I don't know for sure I guess, but Shorthorns are frustrating in more than one way.

 

[Doc]

OFS, You're correct on your math.
SH, It has nothing to do with who you know, it's all on your cows pedigree.

 

[Show Heifer]

So Doc, how can a purebred maine (that has NO shorthorn in her pedigree) that is red, be registered as a purebred shorthorn?????

I didn't mean the ownership thing literally, but what the heck is it based on if not STRICTLY math???? (and I don't see how 0% shorthorn = 75% shorthorn).  Even if a "fullblood maine" (which to ME means it is 100% Maine blood) , how can it be 75% shorthorn. The quote from the office was "yes, a purebred maine with no shorthorn blood can be registered as a 3/4 blood shorthorn but only if it is red." 

Help. (I don't have a qualm with my papers, they are what they are, and they DNA what the papers say) but, if I'm going to be in this "breed"....I need to know what the breed actually is. And to be honest, I am not sure what "shorthorn" is.

 

[shortyjock89]

Maine Anjou cattle were produced from crossbreeding Shorthorn (Durham) and Mancelle cattle together.  ONLY Fullblood Maine's can be registered 3/4 Shorthorn.  It's just the way it is, right or wrong.  Helped get more numbers in the Shorthorn herd book when we opened Appendix Registry in 73.  JIT or someone with more experience (I'm only 19) might be able to give a little more insight, but there are plenty of other problems with our breed other than this......

 

[yuppiecowboy]

The Maine Anjou was developed as a multi purpose draft animal by combining Shorthorns with native Mancelle cattle. I would venture that there is just as much "original shorthorn" blood in a FB maine as the "Irish Shorthorn". Since the French Shorthorn we know as Maine Anjou is already mostly shorthorn in origin it makes sense that they were allowed a jumpstart in the appendix program. It isnt as if they just arbitrarily gave zebu or chianina 3/4 status.

 

[shortyjock89]

The Maine Anjou was developed as a multi purpose draft animal by combining Shorthorns with native Mancelle cattle. I would venture that there is just as much "original shorthorn" blood in a FB maine as the "Irish Shorthorn". Since the French Shorthorn we know as Maine Anjou is already mostly shorthorn in origin it makes sense that they were allowed a jumpstart in the appendix program. It isnt as if they just arbitrarily gave zebu or chianina 3/4 status.

My my my, we sure did have an almost identical post.  SWEET.

 

[DL]

Maine Anjou cattle were produced from crossbreeding Shorthorn (Durham) and Mancelle cattle together.  ONLY Fullblood Maine's can be registered 3/4 Shorthorn.  It's just the way it is, right or wrong.  Helped get more numbers in the Shorthorn herd book when we opened Appendix Registry in 73.  JIT or someone with more experience (I'm only 19) might be able to give a little more insight, but there are plenty of other problems with our breed other than this......

Purebred (92%) red Maine Anjou can be registered as 75% Shorthorn - they do not have to be fullblood (100%) at least that is what my purebred red Maines are registered as by the ASA - don't know about the 88% purebred red Maines...I believe that the American but not Canadian Shorthorn Associations opened the stud book to Maines for a period of time (explaining how Stinger entered the purebred Shorthorn world) - JIT can provide the specifics I am sure

 

[aj]

Fullblood and purebred maines were thought to contain a 3\4 level of shorthorn blood. They are related. The white chianina and say the angus are no where close to be related. It is thought alot of angus are 1/8 chi or holstein. When Ankony threatened to sue the Angus association for kicking their cattle out of the herdbook in the 70's the Angus association backed down from this huge corporation. That is one reason I am told that more angus aren't kicked out. Now they are trying to make Angus look like Angus again it really doesn't matter does it. :-*

 

[Show Heifer]

I didn't realize that Maines were made from shorties....kinda makes sense now! Thanks

And yes, OFS....the shortie breed does have some  problems...will be interesting to see what the assoc will be and where the cattle will be in 10 years. Maybe even 5.

Aj - you are exactly right on the angus. Like I have always said (and firmly believe) There are no "purebred breeds" anymore.
Its a shame, I believe every breed (regardless if I like them or not) have a place in the world. Maybe not on MY farm, but somewhere!!!

 

[shortdawg]

I mentioned the relationship of Maines and Shorties on here before and some thought I was crazy. They are closely related and over 40 other breeds have some SH influence in them.  Maybe I can find the article in one of my old SH Country magazines and post it.

 

[DL]

Mancelle cattle were crossed with what were called Durham (turned out they were Shorthorn) in the 1800s. Maines are the largest of the French beef breeds and are considered dual purpose (milk and meat) - I am not aware that they are considered a draft breed.

shortdawg - that includes the Angus! YUP Harlan Ritchie believes that the only 2 pure breeds on the British Isles are the Highland and the Galloway - everything else  (if they were dogs) would be considered muts (dog)

 

[jnm]

I wasn't aware that Maines can be registered as 75% shorthorn. This makes my situation more frustrating. I took over a herd of 100% shorthorns but the papers hadn't been kept up. I had all the papers on the bulls purchased but not on the females. I had to start everything at 50% and then go to 3/4, 7/8, and finally 15/16 to get purebred registration. I would have been a generation ahead if I'd started with Maines!

 

[knabe]

I am not aware that they are considered a draft breed.

the mancelle was a draft breed.  this is probably where the big front end, toe digging front end came from that everyone has been trying to get rid of since.

here's a print from 1850 of a durham/mancelle

http://www.old-print.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=B3181850416#


here's supposedly 3 prints of a mancelle cattle
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:2wLdVKejiSAJ:stores.ebay.com/Wood-House-Paper-and-Stone_Art-Objects-Prints-Photos_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ19QQftidZ2QQpZ4QQtZkm+julius+bien+mancelle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

couldn't find the book for sale anywhere, or the title for that matter. yes, looked at abebooks etc.

that book in pristine condition must be worth a fortune

 

[DL]

I am not aware that they are considered a draft breed.

the mancelle was a draft breed.  this is probably where the big front end, toe digging front end came from that everyone has been trying to get rid of since.

here's a print from 1850 of a durham/mancelle

http://www.old-print.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=B3181850416#


here's supposedly 3 prints of a mancelle cattle
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:2wLdVKejiSAJ:stores.ebay.com/Wood-House-Paper-and-Stone_Art-Objects-Prints-Photos_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ19QQftidZ2QQpZ4QQtZkm+julius+bien+mancelle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

couldn't find the book for sale anywhere, or the title for that matter. yes, looked at abebooks etc.

that book in pristine condition must be worth a fortune

my understanding was that the French Mancelle was a dairy breed....

 

[knabe]

DL, you are probably right, i have an old pic of a mancelle cow i purchased a print shop with reference utility for draft purposes with them being used for work, milk and meat.  perhaps i'm just confusing what work means.

 

[DL]

DL, you are probably right, i have an old pic of a mancelle cow i purchased a print shop with reference utility for draft purposes with them being used for work, milk and meat.  perhaps i'm just confusing what work means.

knabe - somewhere in my post it was suppose to say that I was under the impression that the French Mancelle were a dairy breed but I can't find it! Now that is work  ;D

 

[kanshow]

Wasn't there originally a milking/dual purpose Shorthorn?  If so, what has become of that? 

 

[Dusty]

Wasn't there originally a milking/dual purpose Shorthorn?  If so, what has become of that? 

They weren't as appealing in the showring so they bred the milking ability out of them......