In your area is there a premium for reg. Angus ---

[Freddy]

In our area  this year a breeder that had all hereford cow herd 15-18----years ago  an then AI'D TO purebred registered Angus bulls till now, had a sale of 35 yearling bulls that  averaged over 2900.00 in the middle of Feb. ...Had three bulls over 5000.00 and were feed on accuration ...  There are three other herds in the area that are doing the same thing an moving 60 head apiece ,not as high a average , but have not been at it as long.  All are very reputable business men an families... Feed out the rest of there cattle and that is about their only true data other than bith ,weaning, and yearling weights ....  We are cutting back raising and registering Angus bulls, we guarantee all the bulls we sell over 2000.00 from injury the first breeding season.... We make more money on our registered Angus heifers than the bulls ...  Are suppose to register the bulls to get the Angus  EPD'S ,most people back here do not seem to have much confidence in these EPD;S .... There are a lot of cattle in this area that are raised also ......

 

[simtal]

We make more money on our registered Angus heifers than the bulls ...  Are suppose to register the bulls to get the Angus  EPD'S ,most people back here do not seem to have much confidence in these EPD;S .... There are a lot of cattle in this area that are raised also ......

Seems to me some folks think that by owning a "registered" bull that somehow make them better (kinda of like owning a dog, he's a mutt unless he's akc). 

 

[Mark H]

Freddy,

Right now their is a glut of Angus (red and black) bulls particularly those calving ease or "spread" bulls.  A few years back some Angus breeders sold some of our bull customers on using Black Angus Bulls with low birth weight and 1,400 LB yearling weights.  They had what looked like perfect EPDs and the breeders basically promised the bull buyers that they would have improved calving ease with no loss of performance relative to a Charolais bull.  Instead what happened was a slight improvement in calving ease and a average loss of 75 pounds at weaning on  both steers and heifers.  Needless to say these guys did not line up to buy Angus bulls again.  Why would a Angus bull with the same or higher yearling weight compared to a Charolais sire lower growth calves?  The Angus bulls were fatter and their higher weight was not a true reflection of their actual ability to sire growthy calves in a commercial environment.  The moral is body composition and environment counts when the animals are weighed in computing EPDs.  No EPD data collection system takes these two factors into account.
Lack of the ability of EPDs to translate into accurate real world performance is a problem for every breed.  The two best ways to solve this problem:

1. Collect the vast majority of EPD data (This may only work on AI bulls) on commercial cows.  Lets you see the combining ability and impact of a production environment.
2. Use data from progeny tests on commercial cows to collect data on random matings ( equal opportunity for each bull to express this genetic potential)

Both of these options would cost money but would improve EPD validity greatly.  Would you be willing to wait 2 years and spend $ 3,000 to $ 4,000 proving a bull if he may fail?  In the mid 60's and 70's the Charolais breed did this with the C to C and SEP progeny testing schemes.  It is time for the Charolais and the rest of the seed stock business to do this again so they do not loose credibility with bull buyers. Then their will be no reason in their eyes between a crossbred and a purebred bull and that will be the end of the purebred business.

 

[simtal]

Lack of the ability of EPDs to translate into accurate real world performance is a problem for every breed.  The two best ways to solve this problem:
1. Collect the vast majority of EPD data (This may only work on AI bulls) on commercial cows.  Lets you see the combining ability and impact of a production environment.
2. Use data from progeny tests on commercial cows to collect data on random matings ( equal opportunity for each bull to express this genetic potential)

The MARC is doing this and much more right now

 

[Mark H]

Simtal,

MARC is not doing this on a comprehensive basis for each breed.  They use the top 50 AI bulls in every major breed to compare breeds.  This can be criticized itself since their is no evidence that the top 50 bulls for registration in any breed accurately represent a breeds productive traits.  Call up Larry Cundiff at MARC and ask him for for yourself.  Larry is a great guy and will talk about MARC data all day.
The second problem is that MARC is not doing  sire summaries .  It is the responsibility of each breed to ensure its EPD numbers are valid and  accurately describe the amount of genetic improvement to be expected from a particular animal relative to an other.  In short MARC does not compute sire summaries or design EPD evaluation systems; that work is done by universities working for the breed associations.
Given the budgetary problems the federal government is in it will fall on the breeders themselves to come up with fixes for the current EPDs-and pay for these fixes as well.  MARC will not provide a free lunch here.