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nysteerguy

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Mar 22, 2007
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78
I know this topic is taboo and many have some serious feelings on this subject but I just wanted to share it on here anyway. I attended the Ohio Expo a week ago and while I was there my father and I were interested in purchasing a bull. As we walked through the barn casually looking at sale prospects we happened upon a pen of three we liked. The man tending the animals struck up a conversatio with us as most often breeders do. We got on the topc of genetics and PHA. We told him that we were looking for a free bull and his response was asking about what our cows were like. We haven't had any of ours cows tested and in his opinion PHA is a manageable defect. I agree with this statement, however, he continued by saying that he didn't believe there was a calf that won these days that wasn't TH or PHA positive. I am not trying to start anything but a general discussion on maybe what others think about this statement. Please don't take my post and ruin it with anger and stupidity.

PS-Thanks red for inviting me over here, never knew it existed...
 

knabe

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Feb 7, 2007
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Location
Hollister, CA
it's really this simple.  either you want the problem or you don't.  belief doesn't equal fact.  the earth is round.  or, they told him it could'nt be done, so he went ahead and did it anyway (win with a non PHA/TH free calf).  perhaps the seller could sanction a PHA/TH only show.  facts don't seem to sway people, how about humor.  blurring the line.  these excuses are getting funnier.  new code word for PHA/TH free, functionality, sound, free moving, though these are not obviously a DNA test.  Mirrors are a great tool.  tide's a changing, i can feel it.  looking back, we will be glad we were able to do it so quickly and think we were so wise compred to how bad it could have gotten.
 

red

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Jan 20, 2007
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LaRue, Ohio
(welcome)

I'm sorry that you got that kind of response. I sold a heifer at the Maine sale. I know i & many were very happy that they required testing. It took a lot of the guess work out when dealing w/ buyers.
I spoke to many peole. Most were looking for clean cattle especially bulls. Most of the sellers were promoting their clean cattle. I'm sure the ones that had carriers were making less of it.
Too bad you didn't get a chance to introduce yourself to me & Dragon Lady!
Did you buy a bull?

Red
 

nysteerguy

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Mar 22, 2007
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78
Yeah actually my dad and I ended up with a shorthorn bull from byland's farm... he is out of fear factor the grand champ shorty bull...he was lot number 9 i believe...really nice and i cant wait to put him to work on some of my grandfathers red polls that we are trying to improve a bit...
 

DL

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Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
nysteerguy (can we call you NY er?) - good question and I think that the vile, anger and stupidity have been left on a different continent or perhaps planet (besides as a moderator I think I have the power to remove it - now isn't that scary! and while on the topic of administration did anyone notice that my karma has stalled? it can't go up  and it can't go down - is that because of the fear that it may go below zero?

OK - Here i s what I think -although what the man said may have some validity to it the vast majority of show calves, especially steers,  have not been tested - so to that end he is (IMHO) simply creating a convenient advertising ploy.

That said I believe there is a phenotype associated with TH and that that phenotype is associated with what (someone) wants in the show ring. It makes sense since the TH gene deals with the development of the legs.It may also be that there are a lot of really bad TH carrier animals out there that end up in the feedlot and the phenotype we think goes along with TH doesn't always.

PHA - I don't' think there is a phenotype associated with PHA - the gene codes for a well conserved protein (that is still secret) but it doesn't appear to have any direct and obvious relationship to a specific phenotype in the carrier state. I thought for a long time looking at the show winners (females) out of known carrier bulls that they were androgynous - but of course we don't know their status so it may be that the judges just liked steery females.

Before we knew about PHA I bred 2 females to a carrier bull on the same day. Females similar in kind and type. Both calved heifers on the same day - one heifer hit the ground and I said I have to flush this cow to that bull. The second one was pretty plain. The awesome heifer remains awesome and is very difficult to fault. The other heifer is plain, too framey, too narrow but will be a decent recipient (or burgerville). Guess which one is the PHA carrier? The plain one. Guess who will never use that bull again?

It is however an intriguing advertising ploy designed to encourgage novices to believe that they cannot be competitive unless they have carriers. Who benefits most from that scenario? Why the breeder of carriers of course!

I know I am in the minority here (and yes I did feel like I had a target on my back in Ohio!) but I look at TH and PHA as lethal genetic defects that have no place in a breeding program. The fastest way to get rid of a recessive lethal genetic defect is not to use carrier bulls. I also realize that because of the breeding choices I made in the past and a chunk of luck recently - I now have a PHA tested clean cow herd and I intend to keep it that way. I understand management of carrier females - but I think that means more than just breeding to clean bulls - it means testing breeding stock befpre you sell it. I was told at the Expo that I am not on the cutting edge because I won't use carriers - does cutting edge mean C-section to deliver a dead PHA calf??

I can't in good conscience sell a carrier animal so my carrier heifer Will be a recipt or go directly to the kill floor. I think there are way too many people who don't get it - even if you tell them the animal is a carrier. Everybody has to make their own decisions and mine have to allow me to sleep at night!

Sabres vs Toronto tomorrow - The Leafs have come on strong - should be good - wish us good luck - BFLO deserves to win the cup ( (clapping) (clapping) after all look at the Bills and the Superbowl ;D

warm, rain over, windy - could it be spring???
DL

 

nysteerguy

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Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
78
man thank you for some good conversation instead of what my thread on clubcalves got you guys should check it out it is under the same heading...talk about hostile...


ps- NYer is fine
 

Joe Boy

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Jan 31, 2007
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692
The bull you have on your logo is clean and sired one of the champions at Houston.  The breeder/owner of the dam has carrier cows but not all of his cows are carriers.  He lost 20 last year with big calves.  That champion has an excellent chance of being clean.

Best wishes and don't allow what someone else says to get you down.....  You and your Dad are looking at the right things in life.....  Others will one day understand when death losses and vet bills out weigh champions and they will......  What they are doing is gambling, like Russian Roulette...  You are planning a future, 10 - 20 - 30 years down the road, while they think of next year.

Have a great day...
 

nysteerguy

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Mar 22, 2007
Messages
78
yeah i chose lifeline as my logo because i know he is clean and i have a calf out of him this spring that i love and cant wait to see develop...
 

ELBEE

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Feb 7, 2007
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Blue Rapids, Kansas
I want to make a comment that you all might find interesting. Back in 97, before Doc B, when Dr. Steffen was the go to guy. I asked our local Vet., who is now retired, what he knew about Tibial Hemimialia? He said, "Oh, thats what makes those fancy show steers!"   
 

red

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Jan 20, 2007
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LaRue, Ohio
ELBEE said:
I want to make a comment that you all might find interesting. Back in 97, before Doc B, when Dr. Steffen was the go to guy. I asked our local Vet., who is now retired, what he knew about Tibial Hemimialia? He said, "Oh, thats what makes those fancy show steers!"   

WOW! When did you first notice it showing up Elbee? Was it in 1997?

Red
 

ELBEE

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Feb 7, 2007
Messages
635
Location
Blue Rapids, Kansas
When our foundation bull was accused of being the original carrier. Deerpark Improver 3rd is DoubleStuff's grandsire. DNA has proven Deerpark Improver 3rd has no link to Deerpark Improver.
 

nysteerguy

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Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
78
I just think it is so funny that ths guy was so serious about the whole thing.  I was thinking in the back of my head about how well I had done with calves that I am pretty sure, because of their pedigree, were TH and PHA free. 


Yeah go OSU....i am a big fan believe it or not...as far as the weather here it is sunny and beginning to dry up a little yesturay we had some rain but the ground has soaked that right up still a few shady spots with some small piles of snow but i bet those will be gone by the evening (clapping)
 
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