Is a grain fed bull worth it out on pasture?

[rocknmranch]

My thought is, if you can't run a bull with cows on minimal feed, is he really worth it? Going to a bull sale, a cow sale, a clubby sale, with the amount of grains and additives pumped into them, its not a true representation of the animal.  The bulls fall apart, and can't handle themselves nor cover cows when that grain is taken away.

People judge a bull based on what clubby, show calves look like, because we are putting into catologs fat bulls. They chose them based on looks,  not on genetics and epds.  Then we try to sell calves that are green, and people can't see the basics. They don't see what genetics have done and proven. They dont see what the animal truly is because it's green.

Ok, just venting, trying to get across a point, and being ever so random.

 

[Freerider]

Great point, I've had a few clubby heifers come home and fall apart as cows, so I bet this happens all the time with over-fed bulls.

I do think you can get around this by being a smart educated buyer as well as physically being at the sale. Pictures and video's are great to eliminate poor cattle, but they certainly don't tell the whole story.

 

[husker1]

It is a very fine line...having bulls fat enough to be presentable, but yet not too fat that they fall apart on grass.

We try to not get much over a 50 Neg. ration to attain this.  I know that's terribly low for some folks  (I've heard bulls being developed up to a 60 Neg), but it has worked for us in the past.  Just got a call from California last night reporting that the yearling Simmy bull that he purchased ran with 25 cows and came off pasture looking really good.  I know that we positively sacrifice yearling weight, as well as sale price dollars, as part of this...

However, the customer that is satisfied and comes back for another bull is much more gratifying than overselling fat ones! 

You can get them looking very presentable on a minimum Neg ration, and still have them maintain condition and stay around for years...but it's not easy.

 

[HAB]

It is a very fine line...having bulls fat enough to be presentable, but yet not too fat that they fall apart on grass.

We try to not get much over a 50 Neg. ration to attain this.  I know that's terribly low for some folks  (I've heard bulls being developed up to a 60 Neg), but it has worked for us in the past.  Just got a call from California last night reporting that the yearling Simmy bull that he purchased ran with 25 cows and came off pasture looking really good.  I know that we positively sacrifice yearling weight, as well as sale price dollars, as part of this...

However, the customer that is satisfied and comes back for another bull is much more gratifying than overselling fat ones! 

You can get them looking very presentable on a minimum Neg ration, and still have them maintain condition and stay around for years...but it's not easy.

I agree with Husker1.  We develope ours as rough as possible.  More and more buyers complain about bull x or y that fell apart after they got them home, and are looking for something that won't melt away.  It is tough though, because the bulls need to have enough developement / condition to be able to breed 20-30 head. We also sacrifice yearling weights, but when repeat customers tell you the bull looks great in the fall after settling all the cows, you don't worry about it.  Take a 1500 yearling fat bull, and in the fall he weighs probably just as much as the non pushed ones, but has drastically changed in appearance.

HAB

 

[Shorthorns4us]

Thank you for bringing up this topic!!!

I always fall on the side of selling my breeding stock a little green and not overfed. I believe that the customer can see what this animal is really going to look like in working conditions- especially cows-- it can be very disappointing to get a "fat" cow home and she falls apart and never is very productive again.    It is a very fine line in keeping animals presentable, but not "ruining" them for the work they need to be able to do for years to come.
I'm going to hang it out there now and probably cut my own throat, but that is the biggest challenge I have in my area trying to sell calves, cows and bulls-- competing against the other breeders that have them "fat".   When I started building my herd- I would attend sales and thiink an animal looked really good and would work for me-- purchase them and then get them on my feed program and several did fall apart or could never go and produce like they should-  now I am very careful about what condition the animal is in when I go to these sales-- are they naturally this good or is there a lot of flesh?   I just don't believe in putting that much grain in breeding animals.
I think that you want to see a calf or cow a little green to give you an idea of what they are really made of and to get a really good idea of structure, soundness, etc.  
I am always very careful when looking for a breeding bull to bring in-- definitely don't want to buy on that is too fat or very conditioned-- sometimes that is hard to find some that are more natural.  
Hey this could be a new marketing idea for "natural" beef-- buying them as you see them!
thanks!
EF

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I can see what is being said, but I question what some call falling apart? When putting animals into sales, taking pics for advertisements, and showing we want them to look the best that they can so we feed them extra and a higher quality feed, we are not simply maintaining them at that point, we are trying to maximize their genetic potential and push them to look their best, so we give them extra.  When we turn one out with the herd on pasture, we are simply maintaining him, not pushing him for anything special.  I completely agree that if you are buying commercial cattle you need to buy them in pasture condition because thats what they are expected to be at all times, but if you are selecting something for show purposes you need to see them in show condition to truly evaluate them.  While it is true that a good cowman can see the potential in a green animal, it also works in reverse that same good cowman should be able to see through the eye appeal and prettyness of a little extra condition and good hair and pick an animal apart at the basics. I am sorry but if you buy one, take it home, turn it out and it truly "falls apart" there was something more than extra feed wrong from the beginning.  Yes some cattle are easier keeping than others, but the only thing that truly makes one fall apart is it not being able to get around and do the job set before it, which generally mostly relies on structural integrity, and that should be easy to see weather the calf has been in a cooler with a free choice feeder in front of him or in a dirt lot on the equator with no feed or hay.  Yes if you buy one that has been on grain and then take the grain away he is going to loose some condition, but that does not constitute falling apart.
I understand part of what is being said, if someone is selling something as a pasture bull, then they need to present him in pasture condition. If someone is trying to promote or sale one as a club calf sire then its the opposite, they need to present him in show condition.  But I think some people go out and buy that show condition heifer or bull, then take them home and turn em in the pasture, and get mad a month later when they dont still look exactly the same as they did a month earlier when they bought em., and that my friends is not one falling apart.

 

[DCC show cattle]

This is the exact reason why I have started buying my COWS as baby heifers off the side of her momma takes forever to get her into production but i can guarantee you that she is going to be productive as long as there is not a factor which cannot be controlled such as cystic ovaries and such which can still be handled. Another reason why I am currently in the process of trying to raise a heard bull and not buy one of breeding age because any "sale ready" bull would fall apart right now in these Texas Conditions.

 

[CPL]

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not because I don't have enough time at the moment to read all the replies.

But, the rumen is actually very key when cattle are forced to make the transition from full feed grain to just grass. The bacteria in the rumen need time to adjust from grain to forage, and this is where most people fall short.

It can be seen alot in these University bull test sales where the bulls are pumped up on full feed for 180 days and then ran thru the ring, sold to the highest bidder, who then takes that yearling bull home and puts him straight on pasture.

I'm not saying there aren't some genetics that just do very poor on grass, or are hard keeping in general, but its important to note that feedstuffs do not change the genetics of cattle (although negative aspects do affect health).

 

[KSanburg]

But I think some people go out and buy that show condition heifer or bull, then take them home and turn em in the pasture, and get mad a month later when they dont still look exactly the same as they did a month earlier when they bought em., and that my friends is not one falling apart.

This is my opinion and I have seen it more than once. I have raised and sold hundreds of bulls, and 99% of them have gone to commercial cattlemen all over the state of Colorado, Utah and New Mexico. I think that the biggest problem that I have seen with "falling apart" is with feet and structural problems and both of these are genetic issues, feed just will make them surface more quickly. These may have been found by simply looking at the direct parentage and a family group as a whole and also by visiting the breeder and discussing the type of environmental conditions the animals have been raised in, which is very difficult to do when you are considering a purchase while at a show. Show cattle sale better because they are appealing and that is from the feed and care that they have been given, there is nothing wrong with that just do your home work.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

To me its the same as anything, you need to know the genetics behind them to know if they are gonna have longevity in the herd.  Soundness is the MOST important factor, regardless if they are fat, ideal, or thin, you can look at them and tell if they are fat.  If you know they are coming from a show or sale where they have been pumped on grain, you cant just throw them out on pasture and expect a good outcome, you have to wean them from the grain to the pasture.  If you follow the simple steps to wean one from the grain to the pasture or from the cool room to the pasture or from the fans to the pasture, then the rest of the the things that cause them to "fall apart" are going to be genetic.  And its your job as a buyer to do the leg work on the genetics, regardless of what kind of condition they are in when you look at them, you wont know their genetic potential til you do the research.  Our bulls that have been fed for show and kept under fans and misters their entire lives have always made the transition to the pasture just fine, but they all had impecable structure and we knew there was longevity in their genes.

 

[flacowman]

According to several university studies, it takes about 2 days for rumen bugs to change from feed to grass digestion.  After that a bulkl has no excuse to have troubles.  We develop bulls with no feed except during the winter with hay and ours make the same yearling weights as bulls from the big ranches that push them as hard as they possibly can.

 

[Shorthorns4us]

Great conversation so far! 
I agree that you can't just take an animal that is on high feed and throw them out on the pasture and expect them to stay the same.  I also agree with the fact that you have to give their system a chance to adjust to the new feed system. 
Falling apart does mean different things to different breeders and cattlepersons. 
I guess I just like to go and look at cattle out on the pasture doing what they do best-- eat, lay around, eat some more and lay around some more!  LOL
EF

 

[nate53]

Falling apart to me would mean, example- buy a bull in april and turn him out in may and he immeadiately starts losing weight and after a couple months he's not fleshy whatsoever and doesn't look like the same bull you bought.  You take him out and start feeding him he gains a little weight but still looks pretty rough, and basically this bull looks rough until he matures 3-4 year old, then he holds up great no matter what.  These bulls for us have always gotten the cows bred just didn't look good until mature, but mainly I think the problem with these bulls was their genetics and change in enviroment.  Over feeding mainly affects feet and longevity, buy genetics that you have seen work in your kind of enviroment or have a history of adapting to variable working conditions.  THe bulls we've been  using the past several years, we got as yearlings and their fleshy when they go into breeding season and they are pretty much the same animal 75 days later.  ;D  Buy genetics that do good throughtout their whole life instead of the ones that look good at a year and then (fall apart) -  have to mature before they look good again.

 

[comercialfarmer]

I think there are probably multiple answers to the question.  In my mind:

Category 1.  Medical issues- parasites, lung disease, etc...  some issues may not be uncovered until the animal is pushed by increasing physical activity, decreasing quality of feed, and then environmental such as heat. 

Category 2.  Sudden change in feed (as has been discussed) but I would think most of these animals would catch up once they adapted.

Category 3.  Efficiency/Metabolism-  some animals will require higher energy intake to maintain themselves.  I suspect the animals with more umph in growth also burn up more energy in maintenance.  When on pasture and the feed available requires more work/time, they may not maintain a good fat layer.  But put them on high octane feed that is less than 50 ft away, I wonder if they may not make better use of it in conversion to beef. 

Category 4.  Environmental differences- numerous potential differences. 

Category 5.  Activity level/libido. 

We purchased 2 young bulls last year from a very reputable source.  One bull maintained himself overall well through breeding season and then in the fall caught up quickly to his pre-breeding status.  The other bull lost a significant amount of weight through the summer and it took quite a while (almost all winter) to return to pre-breeding status.  Different genetics but same environments.  They ran together for a while, but the bull that did not maintain himself was always jacking with the cows.  He would keep them away from water and just mess with them constantly.  So we moved him to a different herd with older bulls.  The older bulls kept him inline from herding the cows away from water, but he was still always on the go looking for something in heat- constantly. 

I don't know how much to attribute his falling apart to hard doing/other causes vs being a marathon runner and a gigolo. 

 

[KSanburg]

One other thing I always figured when I purchased a bull as a yearling was that I expected him to grow significantly over the summer as well and depending on the breeding pasture you have them in makes a lot of difference as well. It is one thing to put a yearling in a 5 or 10 acre pasture with 20 cows or stick them out in a 500 acres pasture with 150 cows and 10 bulls, the harder they work the less condition the are going to come home with. I know a lot of cattlemen that turn out  dozens bulls in the middle of June and run them as high as 13,000 feet and they cover tens of thousands of acres over the summer, and they won't even consider purchasing a yearling for the job.