Is the a data base for monkey mouth carriers?

[Cowboy]

I hate being a spoiler most of the time, I like to be a fixer. In the case of Monkey mouth and SP, I have personal knowledge of one of today's seemingly popular bulls that may surpise many of you out there -- it kind of does me!

I was involved with a hard of cows down in NW Kansas a few years ago, they didn't do any ET, but had me do thier A-I work as we were close by.

They had a bout 15 head of 3/8 to 5/8 percentage Maines, sired by or grand-daughters of Executive. It was about the time that the first crop of Money Man calves had sold thru Major's sale, and they were impressed by the hfrs. They used him on all 15 head ofcows -- 13 calves resulted.

Here is the bad part -- of those 13 -- "5" were really bad SP with one of those also beinga Monkey Mouth bull calf.

The other 8 -- all but 1 or possibly 2, can't remember -- we mildly to severely Monkey Mouth. One was put down due to his absolute inability to nurse or eat. His tongue was showing clear up to where his first molar would be on top. Had almost no nose, only one nostril! He also was pretty bad on his wheels.

Keep in mind, these cows were all sound young cows, had raised good calves from Angus based sires. I hadn't thought of this ordeal until just recently --

That same year the owner passed away from cancer, and his son-in-law took over. Low and behold he had no idea about pedigrees, and had the cows A-I again -- not by me as we had already moved up here, but thru the vet. Less calves were born, but the same result -- all but one I was told were not saleable and some were fed out for home use!

Just thought you all might like that tid-bit of info. I haven't seen a single Money Man bull being promoted around the country either, but I haven't paid close attention, I find that kind of strange. Meybe I missed one or two -- any one know of any??

Every one have a great day -- Terry

 

[knabe]

so are the ads saying no polled pursuit a way of saying no MM?

these defects are starting to pile up real quick.  i'm thinking there is some real expediency in order.

linebreeding is needed sooner than i thought

i just had a scary thought, what if carrier monkey mouth, in the heterozygous form, is associated with low birth weight and "allows" even distribution of shrinking or even scarier is in one of the tenderness genes or is involved with marbling somehow.  derouchey's used executive extensively when they started according to their website.

 

[justme]

Cowboy...interesting.  I have a money man bull and I love him.  His first calves are due in March and I'm excited.  I've also  been thru there herd twice and didn't see any monkey mouth there.  Very Interesting

 

[knabe]

curiously, you can't search pedigree's on the amaa site right now.  a vast conspiracy.

the ultimate steer

PHAC THC MMC SPC  scary.  wonder if warhorse or warpaint or whoever it is, has all 4

 

[red]

I've used WarHorse ( this before I ever had heard the words defect), I've only had trouble w/ a TH calf. That was a big problem but breed her clean now & test. she's never had any monkey mouths or any SP (as of yet). I know ForePlay is a carrier for MM, now I'll be trying to figure out what to bred her too. Never had an issue before & I've used the following on her:
Ice Man 2x
Gold Club 2x
Tug (Habanero x Wild Rose)
Cherry Bomb
Triple X- monkey mouth

Red

 

[DL]

I have a Money Man calf right now that has monkey mouth (steer calf) - I have 2 beautiful heifers that would not need to see an orthodontist, same sire, unrelated dams. Colleen Majors told me that they have had only one cow have MM calves (monkey mouth not Money Man) and that she has MM calves no matter who the sire is.

If this is a recessive trait with variable penetrance that would make both the bull and the cow carriers - the cow is an Impact out of a Witch Doctor dam - funny I stalled on using MM (the bull) because I was never all that thrilled with Pld Pursuit (Executive sire) - life is just one big genetic salad!

 

[Telos]

I hate being a spoiler most of the time, I like to be a fixer. In the case of Monkey mouth and SP, I have personal knowledge of one of today's seemingly popular bulls that may surpise many of you out there -- it kind of does me!

I was involved with a hard of cows down in NW Kansas a few years ago, they didn't do any ET, but had me do thier A-I work as we were close by.

They had a bout 15 head of 3/8 to 5/8 percentage Maines, sired by or grand-daughters of Executive. It was about the time that the first crop of Money Man calves had sold thru Major's sale, and they were impressed by the hfrs. They used him on all 15 head ofcows -- 13 calves resulted.

Here is the bad part -- of those 13 -- "5" were really bad SP with one of those also beinga Monkey Mouth bull calf.

The other 8 -- all but 1 or possibly 2, can't remember -- we mildly to severely Monkey Mouth. One was put down due to his absolute inability to nurse or eat. His tongue was showing clear up to where his first molar would be on top. Had almost no nose, only one nostril! He also was pretty bad on his wheels.

Keep in mind, these cows were all sound young cows, had raised good calves from Angus based sires. I hadn't thought of this ordeal until just recently --

That same year the owner passed away from cancer, and his son-in-law took over. Low and behold he had no idea about pedigrees, and had the cows A-I again -- not by me as we had already moved up here, but thru the vet. Less calves were born, but the same result -- all but one I was told were not saleable and some were fed out for home use!

Just thought you all might like that tid-bit of info. I haven't seen a single Money Man bull being promoted around the country either, but I haven't paid close attention, I find that kind of strange. Meybe I missed one or two -- any one know of any??

Every one have a great day -- Terry

Again Terry, so glad you're on board. Sometimes your friends may be your enemy. For some reason information often times gets swept under the carpet more times then not when genetic defects are involved. I do not know exactly what bulls like Money Man or Hard Core may have as far genetics defects are concerned and that is what the problem is. You have to be Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson if you want to know the truth of the matter. My suggestion is never call the breeder who is trying to sell semen even though they seem like nice, honest people. If some of you remember on Steer Planet the young man from Iowa and his suggestion with a central data base of information in which breeders could have access for unbiased information about particular animals. This is sounding more and more to be an ingenious idea.

It has been embarrassing to look on Steer Planet and see a calf with monkey mouth sired by a bull that I own an interest in and for the whole wide world to see. At the same time, if he is the bad boy I would certainly want everyone, and I mean everyone to not only have access but to know that information.

SteerPlanet is truly a unique forum in which we can gather information that cannot be found  elsewhere. For this, I will always be proud to be a part of.

 

[DL]

Jack - while I agree with much of what you say, I think the breeder deserves to know that you have a deformed calf from their bull, and they deserve to know it directly from you (generic you) not reading it on a message board.

I had forgotten about the young man interested in developing a data base - there is movement toward that in the academic community

I think we also need to remember that not all deformed calves are the result of genetic defects - some are, but some are caused by infections, mineral imbalance, toxins etc...there are cases of dwarfs caused by manganese deficiency and others by toxins in silage....so we may think we are making lists of bulls that cause genetic defects, but (IMHO) one weird calf may make a carrier, maybe not. That is why I think it is so important to document and provide samples for banking DNA for further testing should another example of the same thing come along....right this minute we have a case of PHA in a totally different previously unreported breed - is it genetic or something just weird? who knows, but there is DNA to be tested should another example surface

have a good night 

 

[showsteerdlux]

Telos, that was extremely good of you to say that you wanted people to have acess and know if he is indeed the carrier for mm. That took guts and I wanted to say thanks for being openly honest. It seems that you are in it to help others and for the good of the industry. Thanks its refreshing to see that attitude.

 

[Cowboy]

Hi DL -- in the case of the single cow mentioned, her being a Witch Doctor cow -- would be the source of the possibility of her recessive status -- as he was a Power Plant son.

We have personally had Monkey Mouth calves from both of my Foreplay cows , thier mother also had Power PLant in her pedigree back 2 crosses -- along with Cunia once 3 back.

Those two cows will hit the big time -- even with Heet Seeker before I knew about him, but Heat Wave produces only total wrecks..

One had a Wonder calf her first trip -- a Monkey hfr although fairly marginaly affected - we sold her as a market hfr and she did very well -- was slaughtered.

The older one has had a Chill Factor MM calf as well as -- the first time I used him on her --a very good hfr we kept -- no problems. The bull was a total friek -- we had to carefully contain him until he was finished, only had to walk 15 feet and eat -- he was bad all the way around , including SP.

Her BEST calf is here now -- last years hfr from Mile High Max -- tremendous. Max has 2 crosses though to Powerplant thru Habinero, 2 crosses to Sugar Ray and 1 to Meyer. Meybe I got lucky there too -- she makes very good females -- not so go steers most of the time.

Who knows the real answers any more -- once we cross the 3 to 4 generation cross breeding threshold -- it may be extrememly hard from now on to even guess on where to turn. My fear will be later -- even if we used PURE blood outcrosses, that some of these tuff kind of genes will still pop out. Makes ya wonder!!??

Hope everyone takes the Money Man info as intended, I meant no bad press, just simple info --which didn't sink in too far a few years back, but now does -- as there are soooooo darn many bulls out there that will produce this defect now -- that mysterious grand-dam crossbred cow??? Who will ever know what some of them were. I know mine -- but I only have 10 head!!!

Just-Me -- glad your bull is a good one -- he will probably cross very well on most everything. At least we can self-utilize some of these affected calves -- the tH and PHA deal is pretty much dead end for everything.

I have an ear in storage from an Uno hfr xx the younger of the two Foreplay's -- she was 300 pounds at 7 months of age -- I tried to save her -- but she was so pathetic I couldn't take it any longer -- down she went! I need to send that ear to Dr. B, as we all should be doing from here on !!!

Night all

Terry

 

[ZNT]

Telos, while I appreciate your honesty and candid-ness (is that a word?), I have a different take on this.

I'm not embarassed at all.

A) We're not even ***sure*** that Triple Play (the calf) has Monkey Mouth. 

B) We don't know how the genetics of the MM play out & given that the calf is out of a Foreplay cow, that could come into play more than we may be guessing.  This thread has really criticized the sires of the MM calves, but that's not *necessarily* fair.

That said, I'm really interested to see if there are any more MM calves out of Triple X's first calf crop (over 70 calves out of varied cows).  I know that it won't be definitive, but I'm still curious.

--------------------------------

But beyond that, as a breeder, we are about integrity.  Heck, at the Ft. Worth Maine sale, we had a PHAC heifer --- and that was announced IN THE SALE RING.  We were the only consignor to announce any PHA or TH status (had one PHAC and one PHAF -- both were THF)   Having a defect isn't always a deal-killer.  Being deceitful IS!

Just my opinion of course

~Traci

 

[DL]

Cowboy - that is why I mentioned she was sired by Impact out of a Witch Doctor cow

Traci - agree 100% Having a defect isn't always a deal-killer.  Being deceitful IS!

I think MM is fairly common and would urge people with MM calves to submit samples to Dr B - then we can know the gene, the inheritance and the mutation and that knowledge would be good to have,

 

[Telos]

I agree ZNT. We can be more objective about this when all of his first crop is born. Thanks Traci for helping me see it this way. I still have faith he has potential as a really good cow maker. His first two calves at your place are really well designed and look to be right on target for what I would expect from him. With 70 calves coming we will have a good idea what he is about. If he is a MM carrier we should see a fair amount  (whatever percentage that may be) in this first crop. The problem is knowing the cow is not the culprit.

 

[Telos]

The problem with monkey mouth is Cunia. The problem with Cunia is monkey mouth. JMHO. (thumbsup)  I like this little green guy! Nice even palate with big teeth.

 

[ZNT]

The problem with monkey mouth is Cunia. The problem with Cunia is monkey mouth. JMHO. (thumbsup)  I like this little green guy! Nice even palate with big teeth.

Like I have said all along, Cunia and Power Plant are the number one contributors of MM to the Maine breed.  This is nothing against the DeJongs up in SD because I have done tons of business with these guys, and they are awesome people to work with, but their herds are a good example of what happens when you get too much Power Plant into the bloodlines.  Last time I was up there, and it has been several years, it was not uncommon to find a calf with a little MM.  Not all, not some, but more than normal.  I think even they have gotten away from the Power Plant lines, just because so much of their herd consists of PP daughter, grand-daughters, and even sisters.  I do have to say that the genetics the DeJong family has contributed to the Maine Anjou breed has more than made up for the proliferation of MM in the breed.  Where would Maines be without Cunia and Power Plant????

Like I said in an earlier post of mine.  The presence of MM in Maine cattle has significantly declined since the early 90's.  Breeders have naturally selected this defect out of the Maine breed, for the most part.  The economic impact of MM is nothing like the assured lethalness of TH and PHA in both breeding stock and commercial herds.  At least MM carriers, in a majority of cases can go on to be good doing feedlot(terminal) cattle.  With double recessive TH and PHA carriers, the end is fast and ugly, and can cost you more than a dead calf.  That is why I do not see a test coming any time soon for the MM defect.  It is on the decline, not an incline.  The presence of TH and PHA in those breeds that deny a presence should be the number one priority before the commercial guy is impacted too much.  An education effort probably needs to take place anyway to inform the unknowing commercial cattleman of these defects, and how they can manage and minimize the economic impact to them. 

There is my soapbox speech for tonight.  I am headed to bed now.

Zane

 

[red]

Telos & ZNT- I'm sorry if I caused any problems. I certainly wasn't trying to discount the bull. Jack, I sent you a message before posting the picture. Maybe it got crossed in the transmission. I think it's just as much my cow's fault. Like ZNT we don't know it's monkey mouth. I just didn't want to take a chance so we steered him. I've never had on before & thought I let other's see what it looked like. I wouldn't hesitate to use Triple X again. It's just like I won't get rid of my ForePlay cow. Stuff happens when you deal w/ cattle.

Once again, I'm sorry if I embarrassed or blind sided you.

Red  ))

 

[ZNT]

No apologies needed here, Red.

We're grateful to have the "head's up" -- and I'm still really interested to see how Triple Play turns out.  We have a red steer out of Triple X at our house right now -- Named PRINCE by our daughter.  He's coming along well ...

Keep us posted!!

ZNT

 

[red]

thanks, I am glad I didn't offend you. One of the nice things about this board is that it's a teaching/learning site as well as community group. I've learned so much from so many. Just wanted to pass on the information on monkey mouth & see if there were any know clean bulls.
W/ the birthweight & the bone the calf is going to have, I think Triple X is the real deal. Like I said, I wouldn't hesitate to use him again or refer him to anyone else.

Red

 

[Telos]

I was just disappointed to see anything other then perfection from ole Triple X. I was hoping for the next great one. (thumbsup)  

Red, I still and will always love and respect you. You are one of my (angel) (angel) (angel). So there. You get an early Valentines.  (lol)

Again, what makes this forum so special is the information we gather. This is a great discussion. I have seen numerous cases of MM and when I first saw that picture I new it was Triple Play even before reading it. Most (if not all) of the MM calves I've seen over the years were of Cunia ancestry. Power Plant is out of a Cunia cow so I would bet he got it from that cow. Power Plant's sire is Etulason (Streamliner). I have never heard of a case from that boy or Covino III.

This a classic example of the "omission of information" that has manifested itself into giving Maine's a bad taste. After almost 40 years, breeders have tried keeping this (MM) swept under the carpet. Even though this defect is not as severe as PHA, breeders could have been more forthright in communicating this problem. I guess Dr Beever has some more work to do.