jbarl futures

[JbarL]

i am not sure what the internal switch i seem to have triggered with my post   maine futures   intails and am actually glad that i dont....pick up here later.
i have 2 reg. angus heifers ( bred for feb/march) and i cow due same...she is recip of my bull calf...hes got some work to do next summer    (clapping)  .  i like healthy animals....i like avaliable genetics for flavor (functional)....i like the look  of maine/angus cattle.......i like the fucnctional value of maine/angus cattle........but.....i dont have to do this if i dont get that warm fuzzy feeeling......my thoughts on the question in  the post   maine futures     when  asking for advantages/and disadvantages  of future direction of maines/pha/association/lists/tests/ what to come/ when to end... yada yada  came from thought shared on the mr crull post....       i didnt expect anyone to actually critize the breed that they love....and raise.....and the question may have been a bit vague without my excact needs addressed..which i think i have now......and for that i apoligize...as for any interior switch that this seems to have  tripped...( back where we left of at the top ).  after the post...it ws pulled. i.get a mail..then it pops up angin ( same topic name )...it gets pulled..i get mail...this morning i see the same topic..i..read...drink coffee...didnt get far.....spill coffee...go work....come home  .....topic gone..??????......i met some folks in ohio several years ago who new  bill w. ...and they taught me how to enjoy these kinda moments when folks act this way and suddenly you seem to be involved in it your self ....maybe some of you folks have met bill w's frieds as well.........but if you folks want to inuendo each other thats ok with me but please leave me out of it....i put my email address in my profile ...lord knows if you dont have it the moderators  do
the disadvantage is was hoping to hear was the lack of the breeders assc. attention to this matter and the concern it was to the them....and i was actually hoping to hear a few....and here is why.....all the testing/"leg work/double checking and triple checking....seems to be absorbed be a certian goup of "individules".  and for that i thank you all...not one folk said that obsuorbing the costs/time/money......extra effort.for .inuenduing amoungst yourself......thats the disadvantage...you are trying to self police and rebuild an inner list within the association.....a coup so to speak....and this i see as good........but not one commment about it being a disavantage from anyone...so i see an registeration association that is far from where the tire meets the road......with alot of  very informative, animal profeesions....at all levels.....and that alone for the time being has made me forgo my direction.....i belong to jrtca..(jck rssl ter club of amer.)
a very self policing registery...( 1 year old before registration)...i have 2  1/12  1/7....picture of    confromation.&..healthy.....rat / critter   killin machines (..not mine ..but the breed....bred to hunt)  about 4 yrs or so ago
akc decided tor recoznize them...automatic registeration at liter birth....things the jrtca fought to try and preserve...bout the SHOW must go on and now they are being bred for fur and conformation and jazz alone..no reguard to hunting skills....jrtca members ( friends???) all got together .......and now i would say there line is stronger....worth more money...and definetly the place folks i'd go see ......here i got folks to go to ..but no ground rules that are not black and white on verry current and very critical  issues.....keeping yourself self phac is great....controlling your phac is what you should do....havin to keep track of it each personally with no common goal or a direction from an "association"  then you all are losing ground as we speak...just aint right..........circle the wagons....find the folks you agree with on a common  fuzzy feeling seed...find more folks like you.......deal and trade within in and spred the word...about your own "breed" of maine.......and stop wasting your time critizing each others style of approach to a problem that the assocation's ground rules and lack of response is the main problem here....i am out for now on maines.....because i have a choice...and if i was a current owner ....i.no who i agree with on here and out there  and who i dont agree with....on how they are controlling this  problem they" inherited"...if feel for them.........the solution to this problem is cooperation and self preservation  of the " futures" i was eluding to.....looks like a divided camp to me  ...the babtists and methodists do it all the time....difference of opinion.... .the right ../...or  the wrong internal switches touched...teaching interputations../unethical  behavior.....they split...stay in the same town..and go on...some remain friends...some are/were  friends are stay divided for ever because of it....i apolagiz for the manafesto....but i was hope to reply to the 3rd post that i started to read this morning.....and when it was gone....well lets just say i've had most of the day to think about it...and i think you all should take a day and think about it also..............thanks  jbarl.

 

[Telos]

Darn jbarl, I think you do your best work after midnight. Had to have another cup of coffee and  read your post for the second time. I'll feel goal oriented at least for the next few hours.  I just hope Red has already had her coffee. I know she gets up early, too. Must get ready for breakfast. Hoping all who reads this, has a great day.  (dog) (clapping) (lol) (clapping) (dog)

 

[red]

I guess to be completely honest- I'm totally lost! That is not unusual for me. Have no idea what you are talking about Jbarl- if you need give me a call.

Red

 

[knabe]

hmm.  i'm thinking the maine breeders are pretty much united on trying to breed quality, as are most breeds.  i think they have adopted genetic testing for both postitive and negative traits rather well, and for the most part, kept it in the open, which is a welcome change from both in the past and current for one breed in particular.  i'm actually proud i have maine's, and i haven't talked with one maine breeder, including one's who have sold carriers, and didn't hear enthusiasm.  i remember maine's from the 70's and how far they have come.  i'm actually amazed the massive changes made during the time when other breeds were mixing other breeds and not telling anyone, though i'm sure that's probably true for maines too, but i don't think as radical as angus or hereford, as well as breeding for huge frame scores (sounds like the latest CA budget).  i am still intrigued by the older genetics, though ELBEE and TJ sure make it interesting with the shorthorns and lowliners.  i think the short term future is adjusting to feedstuffs for every breed, and it's great to see the deck shuffled.  from a few posts and emails, i have a new appreciation for the show game, and will try not to be so idealistic.  i am encouraged that the traffic on this site, is for the most part, one of the more active sites around, reflective, critical yes at times, but with an overall great attitude.  i think probably my only regret, as i've said before, was not going fullblood, though shorthorns look extremely interesting.  got that book about shorthorns in KS, great book!, so is courageous cattleman by robert de baca, SJcattle.

 

[Jill]

I have no idea what it is you are trying to say or where you are going with this comentary.  We have purebred Shorthorns, Angus, Crossbreds and  without exception, I like my Maines the best.  They have the traits I am looking for whether you come from a commercial, purebred or show background, this is a breed that has something to offer each of these and I believe are more versitile than any other breed out there.  I think most Maine breeders are united towards a common goal of making our breed more acceptable to a larger major of breeder and feeders, I think where we differ is on the value of the PHA carriers in the breed.  Your view of judging what you see of the breed by what you see of the association really doesn't make much sense, I could understand if you were looking at becoming a purbred seedstock producer, but when you are looking to produce an Angus/Maine cross , your view of the breed should be what the breed can do for your cattle and meeting your goals will be between you and your seedstock supplier, I am lost as to what the association has to do with that?  I think PHA carriers are an additional expense only if you intend to utilize genetics that are carrier genetics.  You have 2 Angus cows, they are carrier free, use a PHAF bull and you will never have any additional expenses nor will you ever have a chance of having a carrier, I think there must be something in this that you don't understand or are just not will to look at, there in no additional time, effort or expense on your part as long as you aren't using carriers.  I think the association has been very proactive in setting a policy for it's membership, putting the information out there for those that want it, and continue to look at long term plans.  The assication can't just dump every carrier out there, it just isn't economically feasible, we don't know where the origins are, but it traces in the lines of huges numbers of cattle out there, Major's Money Man was an excellent example, I think he had 6 carriers in his background, where do you draw the line.  I think as we see more non carrier alternatives come on the scene you will see the carrier fade away, because the carriers are more expensive to use, there will at some point in time just not be any reason to use one.  The future for Maine Anjou cattle is bright, we have dealt with bigger obstacles than PHA and we will get past this one also, Maines aren't for everyone and may not be for you, but I would suggest you make your decision based on the cattle.  You may try talking to some folks that actually make their living raising Maines instead of reading an internet board that attracts a large number of folk (including myself) that have sources of income that allow us to raise cattle for fun.

 

[JbarL]

what worries me the most is the ones that still seem to be popping up........and it seems all you guys out there havin fun are the ones  doing all the research, tests and finding all the "new ones"....i realize you all the ones doing a great job of gathering all this info.....and i use as much as i can.......i have to...this is the place that seems to give me more updated info .....it seems that ive heard the denver show may be requiring a phaf cert......but what about all us folks out there just havin fun  thanks jbarl

 

[DL]

JbarL -as some one who has been intimately and actively involved in this issue I think we can safely say there are plenty of good clean AI Maine bulls - I don't see unexpected carrier bulls popping up - For purebred Maine bulls anything with Draft Pick or Stinger needs to be tested.  Using PHA negative bulls is actually pretty easy.

Jill - I don't know where you got the idea that Money Man had six carriers in his pedigree - I went back 6 generations and didn't see any PHAC in his pedigree - I went back 10 generations and only saw Dalton once way back in Waldo's dams pedigree - I didn't see Paramount but I could have missed some - but it is really irrelevant because he is clean

 

[JbarL]

thanks all .....for all you comments and info..........i.as well as many others...am gratful for your guys reasearch/time/money/ friendships/business futures/ and loses you all have endured as some very knowlegable folks......i also believe that the current stabalized condition in the maines at this time has been influenced by folks like you.....i no that all of you that have done  this reasearch/time/testing.....will benifit greatly.....and i'm sure the info you have passed on and reasearched has helped literaly hundreds of folks from this site alone......for that i am surely gratful and appreciative.......i am not implying anything  about the breed...or the folks that trade in maines.....i was just gathering info on the cross, and deciding on whether or not to introduce it with mine....you all  personally seem "way'' ahead of the association as far as addressing/controlling/ and documenting these issures  in a timely fashion...........actually you all seem to have taken the lead in controlling this from the bottom up.......again the asscoiations " official" direction on addressing  this has "finally" been recogonized and they are controlling it from the top ( rules for participants at this years denver event) on down ....i.....being one of the bottom up guys appreciate everything you all have contributed and shared...thanks jbarl

 

[Jill]

JbarL -as some one who has been intimately and actively involved in this issue I think we can safely say there are plenty of good clean AI Maine bulls - I don't see unexpected carrier bulls popping up - For purebred Maine bulls anything with Draft Pick or Stinger needs to be tested.  Using PHA negative bulls is actually pretty easy.

Jill - I don't know where you got the idea that Money Man had six carriers in his pedigree - I went back 6 generations and didn't see any PHAC in his pedigree - I went back 10 generations and only saw Dalton once way back in Waldo's dams pedigree - I didn't see Paramount but I could have missed some - but it is really irrelevant because he is clean

This actually was taken from a comment made by Telos "Last night being a bit emotional because some others seemed emotional... well I started to run some Maine pedigrees. Polled Pursuit, Hard Core, Midas, Moneyman, Paydirt and some others which I don't remember and saw they all had some Dalton genetics in their pedigree. As we all know now Dalton is is a PHAC. Now these are some of the most used and some of the best bulls the breed has to offer and though they are free of the PHA gene go back to a carrier. I counted 5 shots of Dalton in Moneyman's pedigree. A bull you like. To me, this proves carriers have potential merit" You all are way over my head in the pedigree chasing, I was just using him as an example.

 

[DL]

JbarL -as some one who has been intimately and actively involved in this issue I think we can safely say there are plenty of good clean AI Maine bulls - I don't see unexpected carrier bulls popping up - For purebred Maine bulls anything with Draft Pick or Stinger needs to be tested.  Using PHA negative bulls is actually pretty easy.

Jill - I don't know where you got the idea that Money Man had six carriers in his pedigree - I went back 6 generations and didn't see any PHAC in his pedigree - I went back 10 generations and only saw Dalton once way back in Waldo's dams pedigree - I didn't see Paramount but I could have missed some - but it is really irrelevant because he is clean

This actually was taken from a comment made by Telos "Last night being a bit emotional because some others seemed emotional... well I started to run some Maine pedigrees. Polled Pursuit, Hard Core, Midas, Moneyman, Paydirt and some others which I don't remember and saw they all had some Dalton genetics in their pedigree. As we all know now Dalton is is a PHAC. Now these are some of the most used and some of the best bulls the breed has to offer and though they are free of the PHA gene go back to a carrier. I counted 5 shots of Dalton in Moneyman's pedigree. A bull you like. To me, this proves carriers have potential merit" You all are way over my head in the pedigree chasing, I was just using him as an example.

Ah, yes I remember that thread - I believe it was directed at me  ;D (in good humor of course) - I would never argue with Telos the pedigree guru but on a quick scan (remember land line - waiting is boring ) I found only one Dalton in MMM - but who the heck really cares, the bull is clean ;D

 

[Telos]

OK-Five shots of Dalton are in Money Mans pedigree and it is irrelevant at the same time because he is clean. If Dalton's sire, Univers, is a culprit then there's a lot more carriers in his pedigree through Pistol Pete and the other portions of his extended pedigree. I do feel there are other lines of Maines that are carriers, but who cares and what difference would it make anyway.
                                                ;D 8) ??? : :-\ :-* :'(
Having a test is a blessing, but here is where to the big problem begins. What steps will the Associations take to keep PHA  out of the commercial sector?  Will breeders cooperate to insure this happens? If this isn't done then you have virtually eliminated some of these breeds potential. Even though PHA originated in Maine-Anjou, it is now a problem equally shared with other breeds that took advantage of these genetics.  Yes, they are all in the same boat together, and probably should work together to help solve some of these problems..

I still feel PHA free cattle from carriers can have positive genetic merits. Balancing all of this and at the same time protecting the interest of the commercial operators, will be a bit tricky and require some serious diligence.
.

 

[DL]

OK-Five shots of Dalton are in Money Mans pedigree and it is irrelevant at the same time because he is clean. If Dalton's sire, Univers, is a culprit then there's a lot more carriers in his pedigree through Pistol Pete and the other portions of his extended pedigree. I do feel there are other lines of Maines that are carriers, but who cares and what difference would it make anyway.
                                                ;D 8) ??? : :-\ :-* :'(
Having a test is a blessing, but here is where to the big problem begins. What steps will the Associations take to keep PHA  out of the commercial sector?  Will breeders cooperate to insure this happens? If this isn't done then you have virtually eliminated some of these breeds potential. Even though PHA originated in Maine-Anjou, it is now a problem equally shared with other breeds that took advantage of these genetics.  Yes, they are all in the same boat together, and probably should work together to help solve some of these problems..

I still feel PHA free cattle from carriers can have positive genetic merits. Balancing all of this and at the same time protecting the interest of the commercial operators, will be a bit tricky and require some serious diligence.
.

Ah Telos, the pedigree guru - while I might agree globally that there could be some excellent genetics from PHAC if the offspring tested clean - my issue is with the due diligence especially with regard to newer breeders, 4Hers, and the commercial guys - there are those who don't see PHAC as an issue and of course are lacking in due diligence....... ;D 8) : :-\ :'( O0 WOW!

 

[Telos]

Yes, I know. Don't think there's enough folks to even give an honorable mention to, when handing out the "Ethics and Moral  Awards". Guess I was just dreaming and being unrealistic when I wrote that. 

 

[Telos]

After more then year of analyzing, debating, finger pointing, being silly, obnoxious, making friends and occasionally enemies over TH-PHA ...I have concluded that genetic testing is just going to be a  part of the cost of doing business in modern day cattle breeding.

It really is unrealistic to think everyone is going to jump on the same bus in route to the same destination even though almost
everyone will ultimately be in the same boat together.

I do not think these genetics are going to go away anytime soon, especially when they come with some showring appeal.

It has been interesting analyzing how both these genetic defects became so well established in the gene pool. Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of this, was observing the development of the tests and how Dr.Beever along with the cooperation of others came to develop it. I consider it a privilege to have been a spectator sitting on the sidelines and watching how everything unfolded.

 

[afhm]

JbarL were you "sleep typing" on this post? 

 

[JbarL]

....having my yearly maintenance takedown/ inspection/ repair/ and  boiler inspections.....had to address alot of issues i wasn't expecting.......but  nows the time to do it..soooooo...ive been working 2pm to 2am...since last tuesday  or so....kinda caught up now.....it did make me miss the Ohio state fair however...and i was going to look at a bred maine cow while i was there....( hence all the questions on " just how clean is clean" direction i have been taking)...i know several folks who are quite successful with the maines in ohio........ the champion   7/11   bull on the tuesday show is on a farm about 15 miles from mine in ohio.....the reserve champion owner this year played a major role in my angus line selection this spring........was quite looking forward to coming up .....didn't work out.....was definitely looking forward to tracking down the sp folks for sure....and meeting them in person....didn't work out..........so i quess i was sleep typing...and a bit disappointed that i couldn't make the trip ......but i did make my decision...passed on the bred cow.....finishing up my outage here.......back to semi reg hours...and letting my sakadic (sp) rhythm adjust back to semi retired mode....not sure when my nxt trip  home will be for sure...but i sure appreciate "all" the input...sorry if i opend  a can of worms.....thanks....jbarl