Justintime, time for another history lesson.

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stick

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Justintime, give us a history lesson on this bull and his sire. Anyone else, feel free to chime in too.
 

DL

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Justintime, give us a history lesson on this bull and his sire. Anyone else, feel free to chime in too.

(stick said this - I just shrunk the picture)
 

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justintime

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The pictured bull is Four Point Major( Massive Major)and he is pictured here at 11 years of age. The reason I know this is because I was present when this picture was taken.  Massive Major was born in 1966, in a era when small framed cattle were still the norm. He was bred in the Elmer Berg , Four Point herd in Northern Alberta. Elmer sold Major as a yearling bull and he was turned out in a commercial herd in the bush and he remained there until he was  over 8 years old. He had never been haltered, or pampered and had run year round with the cow herd. Despite this, he developed into a 2600 lb bull, in natural breeding shape. He was discovered by John and Mac Draper, Rothbury Farms, Elgin, Manitoba when they were literally combing the bush trying to locate some cattle that were decendants of the Nupar herd.( John and Mac Draper were two of the founders of Bar 5 Simmentals after they dispersed their Shorthorn herd.) Massive Major's dam was Nupar Miss Lea x by Nupar Meteor x. From the reports I have heard, Nupar Miss Lea x was about as good a cow as was alive in that day. Her sired Nupar Meteor x was also supposed to be a truly amazing bull. The Nupar herd was owned by Frank Fox, Islay, Alberta, and Frank was a brother of Jonathon Fox of Justamere Farms fame. Frank Fox believed in big framed polled cattle when everyone wanted small horned cattle, so his cattle were never accepted very well. About the only people who purchased cattle from the Nupar herd were farmers who could not afford to buy the more popular smaller framed cattle.
Massive Major was sired by Ball Dee Perfect Count x a red polled sire that also weighed over 2600 lb. He was one of the first Shorthorn bulls to be leased to a stud in Western Canada, and if I had been old enough and smart enough, I would have filled a tank with his semen. I could retire now if  had this to sell now. Ball Dee Perfect Count was sired by Carona Perfect x, a red polled bull that was brought to Canada by Dave Ball, Edmonton, Alberta. The Carona herd was one of the early polled herds in the US. They were based in Illinois I believe ( maybe Indiana).Dave Ball was able to buy him at a reasonable price in one of Carona Farms production sales because he was the biggest bull on offer and far too big to ever make a show bull in the  US at the time. Dave Ball said that Carona Farms tried to buy him back after the sale, as they felt tha Carona Perfect may have been the best bull they had ever raised, despite his size. He was put in the sale because they still had his sire and the herd also had lots of his daughters.  I remember when I was about 9 or 10 years old, my parents visited the Ball herd while we were visiting family that lived near by. My mother was actually raised about 5 miles from the Ball farm. It was a herd of 300 polled Shorthorn cows and Dave Ball offered my dad the entire herd that day for $250 per cow. He was having some health problems and wanted to sell. Again we weren't smart enough to know what we were looking at. I would give my eye teeth for some of those cows today.
When the Draper's dispersed their Rothbury herd, Massive Major was then 10 years old. He generated lots of interest but most breeders were afraid of purchasing a 10 year old sire. We teamed up with 9 other breeders and purchased him for $10,000. ( As you can tell we were all a little leary about a 10 year old bull as well, as it took 10 of us to get him bought... haha)The runner up bidders were a syndicate from South Dakota. We decided that we would draw for the right to use him naturally for 6 weeks, and we were fortunate to get him twice before he died of a twisted gut at age 14. At 14 years old, he could still out walk most people. When he was on pasture you had to trot once in a while to keep up to him. He was a bull that gained weight on pasture even though he was still breeding about 60 - 70 females at  this age. He had feet like dinner plates and they were perfectly formed and  had never been trimmed. I did have about 100 vials of semen from him until this spring, and it all sold except for a few that I kept for myself.
For some reason, Massive Major sired females that were much better than his sons, despite him having some outstanding sires in his background. The females were outstanding in that they were thick easy fleshing and fertile. They were tanks as they had massive capacity and they milked well. Major daughters also had excellent udders. His sons had tremendous capacity to the point of often being considered gutty. I think part of this was coming from the cows of the day, on which he was being used on. I used Major on about 30 dual purpose cows that I had purchased in Ontario and this worked extremely well. There were some excellent bulls and females from this combination and I think he would really work on some of today's female bloodlines.as a side note, Massive Major put the white mark found on his flank, on almost every calf I ever saw from him. If you have any questions about him, ask and I will try to answer them.
 

stick

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dl, thanks for the help on the picture. Professor justintime, thanks for the insight on the bulls. Do you remember where the picture was taken? In the background of the gigantic picture I tried to post it looked like there were some pretty good sized cows.
 

justintime

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This picture was taken here on our farm by my father, in the spring of  1977. This was during the second and last time we got to use him naturally in our herd.
 

garybob

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NHR Shorthorns said:
That was pretty cool. Yall know anyone with his calves?
I am amazed at the number of breeders who are impressed with real Shorthorn cattle, yet, for some strange reason, everyone is reluctant to try their hand at turning things around.
Have you had any trouble getting newly-acquired cattle to eat Mesquite beans and hustle when moved to your ranch?
 

yuppiecowboy

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Let me just say that JIT had more shithorn knowledge in his last bowel movement than I will ever have, That being said, my family has had shithorns since 1886. Dual purpose shithorns once upon a time were just that, DUAL. Haumonts in nebraska, among several, had shithorns that were stout. Shorthorns have been nothing more than crossbred cattle since Bapton Constructor got off the boat. To think they have any commercial appeal is laughable. I laugh when they talk about an easy calving shithorn. 9 out of 10 may be born in the pasture but God help you on the tenth. They are pretty and that is it. believe it or not they have bred the maternal traits out of a milking breed.
 

justintime

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Yuppiecowboy, I have to disagree with some of your statements. There are areas where Shorthorns have commercial appeal.There are lots of areas where they don't, and I maintain this is mainly caused by breeders who find it easier to sell a little fur ball steer at weaning than to bust their buns developing a market for their bulls.  Yes it has been a long uphill road to achieve this but I sell all my bulls by private treaty on the farm, and I have sold every bull we have  5 of the last 6 years. One of the biggest complaints I have from my commercial bull buyers is that there is not enough bull sales within a reasonable distance for them to go to select their bulls. For that reason, we are planning to performance test about 50-60 bulls and collect every piece of data humanly possible on them, and hold a bull sale next April. I love selling bulls privately out of the yard, but I think it is time to give them some extra exposure. This year I could have sold many more Shorthorn bulls than I had.

I had a conversation with one of the main buyers for Cargill, a while ago, and he said that they love to see sets of Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross finsihed animals hit their plants. The highest premium ever paid by Cargill, for quality, was for a set of over 100 Shorthorn steers that were slaughtered there.They were custom fed in a large feedlot and the entire pen was shipped on the same day. So if the Shorthorn in your area don't have any commercial acceptance, it is mainly due to the fact that the Shorthorn breeders in your area are not trying real hard to obtain a piece of this market. And like I said earlier, it simply doesn't happen over night and it takes alot of commitment and intestinal fortitude.
Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross females have always had commercial acceptance. For many years I have received calls from guys wanting Shorthorn cross females. Last fall I had a guy wanting 150 to 170 Shorthorn X Hereford bred heifers. I called many commercial producers who were using Shorthorn bulls and got about a dozen... why?  .... They all wanted to keep their Shorthorn X heifers for their own herds. For years we bred all our purebred Charolais heifers to Shorthorn bulls. I always kept the heifers and sold them as bred heifers. After I sold the first group, I had guys on a waiting list for tem the next year. It was  pretty easy to sell them and sell them for a $200 to $300 premium over the going rate for commercial bred heifers.

  Your next point of Shorthorns not having calving ease is also a matter of opinion. Maybe in your herd calving ease is an issue, but there are lots of bulls that calve reasonably. I hate to keep using examples from my own herd, but it is the one I know the most about. In 2007, we have had 189 cows and heifers calve. ( 42 were first calf heifers). Of these I assisted 3 head, 2 of which were backwards, and one was a heifer that I was not sure how long she had been calving when I found her, so I pulled it out.I check the cows at 11 pm and if nothing looks like they are going to calve soon, I go to bed and check them again at 6 am.  We use a number of leading AI sires as well as our own herd sires. We try to keep our cows in moderate condition  and WE MAKE THEM WALK whenever the weather permits. I am convinced that exercise is one of the key ingredients to eliminating calving problems. I put a band on any bull calf with a BW of more than 110 lb and I have banded a few pretty awesome calves. Since I started doing this, I have never had a complaint from a customer about our Shorthorn bulls causing calving issues. Because of this, you can get repeat customers. I sold 5 bulls to a large commercial producer 6 years ago, and I made sure he knew which bulls he should use on mature cows and which were better for heifers. This spring he bought his 16th bull from me . He also runs some pretty good Angus and Charolais bulls and he says the Shorts are consistently his best groups when he weans.When I delivered the bulls he bought this year, they were dropped into a pen beside a Black Angus bull he bought at $7800 in a local sale. Even he agreed that he should have bought another Shorthorn as there was simply no comparison in the quality of the bulls.  I know I am not alone in not having any major calving issues with Shorthorns, as I know of several Shorthorn breeders who do not even own a calf puller.

I think Shorthorn breeders have in a round about way selected for bigger birth weights, as Shorthorns on average have larger pelvic openings and can therefore calve bigger calves without assistance. We have had Shorthorns on this farm for 104 years, and to my knowledge, we have never had a Shorthorn prolapse. My dad who is 82 can never remember one . I can remember 4 c- sections on Shorthorns, some of which were backwards calves that could not be brought up into the pelvis properly. That is 4 out of several thousand births. I became very familiar with prolapses with some of the other breeds we raised over the years.
I am not sure what you are saying when you say that they have bred the maternal traits out of a milking breed. There are definitely some lines that possibly will decrease milk, but these lines are definitely in the minority. I can't remember the last Shorthorn that didn't have enough milk. Over the years, we have maintained purebred herds of Horned Herford, Black Angus, Simmental, Maine, Chi,and Charolais, and have always had a sizable commercial herd as well, along with our Shorthorn herd. We now only have the Shorthorns and a commercial herd. I have often said that the best promotion the Shorthorn breed could do is convince every Shorthorn breeder to give a cattlemen in his area two Shorthorn females free. I may be sounding like a Shorthorn zelot, but believe me, I enjoy  good cattle no matter what breed or color they are. We dispersed a herd of over 100 purebred Charolais cows 4 years ago. I have not had a vet assist with a birth since then... and we would have had well over 500 calves born here since. Believe me, if you want to hear some horror stories about calving problems in some other breeds, I could entertain you for more than a few hours.
Maternal to me, means more than just milking ability. It also includes the ability to care for their calf, their ability to calve, get rebred and calve again within 12 months, and it also includes docility.
    I am very familiar with the old dual purpose Shorthorn cows. Yes there were some awesome females amongst them. In the early 70s I went to Ontario to see if I could buy a few Dual purpose females as I thought they be good to help increase frame size in some of our cattle. I came home with a full pot ( over 40 head) > They were big thick cows and I intentionally selected cows that were producing less that 8000 lb of milk a year ( they came from dual breeders who were milking them). You cannot find cows like them today anywheres. Only about 1/2 of them lasted any length of time as they could just adjust to our enviromental conditions ( ie: cold winters and hot summers that often were dry). The ones that did stay were so tough you probably couldn't have killed them with an axe. They were tremendous cows but today we would call them all too big for what we want our cows to be.  I do not think any of us would want to have a herd made up of only these dual purpose cows that used to be the norm.
Your general comments, in my opinion, are wrong. If you want to talk about calving issues, I could tell you about my Polled Hereford neighbour who has had 11 c sections this year, or my friend with raises some very good Black Angus who had calves that weighed between 120 to 140 lbs this year.... from sires that had reported BWs of under 90 lbs themselves.
I apologize for the length of this, but I have to be honest when I say that your comments bugged me.
 

red

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JIT- I had heard the same information about the premium & Cargill. Just love you r information even though I'm a Maine breeder.
Wish we were as all passionate about our breed & as knowledgeable.
Yuppie, you bring some good points that I think several would agree w/ you on.

Red
 

Doc

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JIT, Thank you for your response. I've only been raising Shorthorns for 35 years , but I've been involved with other breeds some & wouldn't take any of them for my Shorts. There is some good points in all cattle but as a complete package I wouldn't have any of them over my Shorts.
 

itk

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Thanks for the post JIT. I seems to me that there are a few shorthorn breeders on this forum who can't even seem to stand the breed. I was going to reply to yuppiecowboy's post but you beat me to it and responded  much nicer and more well spoken then I would have. My family has only been raising shorthorns for ten years but I firmly believe that shorthorns excel at every niche in the cattle industry even the commercial sector. I better wrap this up now or I could make JIT's post look short. I'll leave with this thought if you don't like your shorthorn cows sell them and do something original like buy some angus.
 

OH Breeder

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My personal experience is a blink compared to JIT's. I am amazed everytime I read his post. Its like picking up a history book. I have learned a great deal about my own breed. Have you thought about sharing some of your knowledge with the Shorthorn Journal? A section on History once a month would be GREAT. It might give some breeders more insight as too where there breed came from and where they COULD be going.
I really enjoy my shorthorns. We have a very small herd. I used a Shorthorn Bull on all the cows last year. OUt of my shorthorn cows not one pull. The ones that were  XX bred and AI'd to popular club bulls, well quiet a few assists and two heavy pulls. My best performing calves weaned last fall were Shorthorn Purebred and Shorthorn Cross.
THANK YOU JIT!
 

garybob

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yuppiecowboy said:
Let me just say that JIT had more horn knowledge in his last bowel movement than I will ever have, That being said, my family has had horns since 1886. Dual purpose horns once upon a time were just that, DUAL. Haumonts in nebraska, among several, had horns that were stout. Shorthorns have been nothing more than crossbred cattle since Bapton Constructor got off the boat. To think they have any commercial appeal is laughable. I laugh when they talk about an easy calving horn. 9 out of 10 may be born in the pasture but God help you on the tenth. They are pretty and that is it. believe it or not they have bred the maternal traits out of a milking breed.
Then, why, Man, don't you roll up your sleeves, and BREED cattle ( involving selection), instead of simply raising registered ones and maintain the pedigrees? Guys like you need to DO something about the accidental loss of maternal traits that came about as a result of selection for growth traits and show ring trends, once you have realized what has happened. I do agree with you on a lot of the popular pedigrees today. The difference between you and me, is, that I'm doing something about it, in my own herd, one calf crop at a time. You, on the other hand, know what is wrong, but, do nothing to change things, and, continue to breed for the very things that have damaged the breed, as  a whole, simply to make money for yourselves, with no concern with whether or not your customer makes money.

Just my opinion.

Gary Bob
 

stick

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yuppie, heres your quote from another thread "I have a stinger cow who looks likes a giant fat steer." Congrats on her being PHA neg, but..... when you say that horns have lost their commercial appeal, and you laugh when someone talks about a calving ease horn, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why. Who would want a cow that looks like a fat steer?  I want my cows to look like cows and my bulls to look like bulls.
Here's something I pulled off a breeders website: There is often a big difference between breeding show cattle and showing breeding cattle.  We believe in the production of practical, hard working cattle that can work in Western Canadian commercial operations.  If they work in the show ring - well, it is a bonus.
Sounds like there are a few others here that have my same opinions, and I know of a few more that haven't chimed in on this thread.
 

yuppiecowboy

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hey Y'all, before you jump on me, listen... I did the "breeder" stuff for years and couldnt sell darn good bulls to save my mortgage. I will put my horns against anyones, but i have already sold my top six bull calves for an average of over 3k. As hair n bone steers. If I would be selling bulls, god help me to get 15 hunert after wintering them. I know horns and I know the bloodlines. I defer to JIT a he has a market, the knowledge, and the genetics to sell bulls. I dont. And neither does anyone who frequents this board. Save the "Durham Red" BS cause nobody is buying it. Neither I nor any of you have the time or money to convince a buyer they need something that we cannot provide.

Just facts from a man who is an old school horn guy.
 

sjcattleco

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WOW  Yuppie I certianly hope you are playing devils advocate or decided to take a small trip to left field just to see what the air was like over there cause judging by your statements the O2 was a bit thin......Are you feeling OK??? (lol) I used to feel a little bit like your statements until I realized that I had about 50% of my cows were trash and needed to go live with someone dumber or richer than me or just take the last ride and go see Dave Thomas!!!( Wendy's)  If you would  like for a nominal fee I will bring 2-3 dogs and a horse and will sort and load out all the females in your herd that are holding you back!!!  (dog) (dog) (dog) Lie down  .... Stay dog.....

..Good show steers make lousy bulls... Great bulls make pretty good steers... If the bull is that good keep him and sell the sire.... breed him to his sisters and if you really get brave breed him back to his dam!!! ..... I too know horns and bloodlines and only about 10% of the gentics out there is worth a dime and the other 90% you really should have to be paid to take the crap... 

Durham Red.... BEST idea on the market... Actually makes more sense than any other percentage program in the country from what I can tell....If commercial cowmen would open their eyes and look at their bang for their buck It would really take off..... . I actually wish I had extra cash to buy a few Red Angus cows... I think i have some genetics and some know how to produce some neat stuff.....
 

justintime

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Yuppie,
I should apologize to you for my outburst above. You caught me at a low moment, and I should have taken the proverbial 10 deep breaths before I started into my speel. It was bloody hot and humid here yesterday, and I sat down at my computer after spending countless hours going in circles on a hayfield. I was very tired.....  and I saw your comments. Quite frankly, you really annoyed me, with your comments ( I bet you could hardly tell !) and I let you have all the frustrations of my day, along with some that had built up over a few others. My point is that you are totally entitled to express your views on here as is anyone else. I hope you will continue to do so, as well as anyone else who reads this. We don't have to agree on everything.... and it often is lucky that we don't. For example, it would be pretty hard to have a decent auction sale, if everyone only liked the same 3 head in the sale.
I still don't agree with what you said, but I hope you will continue to express your thoughts on here. That is what makes this site so great,in that we come here from all parts of North America, (and probably a few other places), we all like different breeds or different cattle or different types of cattle. That is great! If you are getting enjoyment from your cattle, and they are allowing you to pay the bills and provide a good way of life for you to raise your family, who am I or anyone else, to tell you that you are doing something wrong. At the end of the day, we all basically raise these creatures to assist us in making a living, with a little enjoyment thown in along the way. It is really a great way of life and I am continuously thankful that I have been able to do this  as well as meet so many wonderful people along the way. The cattle business is actually a " people business"  I am sure there are some who will say they raise the breed they do, simply to asisst the breed to grow... If anyone who reads this feels this way, don't bother telling any of us on here as we probably don't believe you. If you need to tell this to someone, tell some of your city friends, as they love marters for a cause.... usually any case. I have yet to meet anyone in the cattle business who enjoyed losing money. Even the filthy rich guys that get into the cow business to try to avoid paying some tax dollars,get pretty cranky of they continue to lose money for any length of time.
I better quit here before  I start to write another book. The " Reader's Digest" version of what I am trying to say is, we will always have topics that we cannot agree on, but don't let anyone, including me, stop you from voicing your opinion. It is through some healthy debate, that we can all continue to learn. A hundred years from now, no one will care what you or I wrote on this site or any other... so please... everyone continue to express your views. If we all do this, I predict this site will become one of the hottest and most used cattle related sites on the net. 
 

red

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(welcome)

That's my feeling exactly JIT! We don't all have to agree but if we can expressed our opinions in a matter that allows us to, we can learn from each other. I have  been accused of being wishy washy but I try to see things from all points. By doing that it has expanded my horizans greatly. Plus I have met wonderful people that before, being clsed minded, would never have allowed me to do so.
I love you insights. Personally would love a Reader's Digest version of your thoughts.
Yuppie- hang in there. I think I know what your say, it might not have come out the way it read.
We all have someting in common- love of cattle!

Great job guys!

Red
 
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