KEYS ALL STATE 149X calves?

[farmboy814]

Anybody have pics? thoughts? opinions?

Thanks.

 

[BogartBlondes]

I have had 6 calves off of All State and 1 due soon. I have had one calf that really stands out, the others vary from good to c**p. He is probably the most inconsistent bull I've ever used. Very good calving ease though.

 

[farmboy814]

Thanks for the reply! I plan on using him on my shorthorn heifer for a fall calf.

 

[Mark H]

Farmboy,

Time for a reality check here.  Keys Allstate is nota proven heifer bull-not by a long shot.  In any event if you are going to use a charolais bull on a shorthorn heifer the heifer must be well grown out and have no history of calving problems in her pedigree.  Also the people that do this besides knowing tht the bull is the right one to use are set up to take care of problems if they happen.
If you still want to do ths then i would be looking at dedicated heifer bulls such as WR Big Ben, DR Revalation,Cedardale Tyrant or Blugrass himeself.  All these bulls are known easy calvers and have produced some good ones although not on the level of what you had in mind.

 

[BogartBlondes]

I haven't had any All State calves over 75 lbs. I would safely breed him to a heifer.

I love my Revelation calves, they are meaty and are very easy keeping. I would suggest Revelation before All State in any case.

 

[Mark H]

Bogart,

What was the breedng of the females you bred to Allstate?  Remeber this is a shorthorn we are talking about not a char or blonde cross.

 

[rackranch]

If your set on using a Charolais bull on her take a look at the bull.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/clubepd2.asp?idProduct=3820

 

[RyanChandler]

Farmboy,

In any event if you are going to use a charolais bull on a shorthorn heifer the heifer must be well grown out and have no history of calving problems in her pedigree.

These type of generalities help no one. 

Bogart,

What was the breeding of the females you bred to Allstate?  Remember this is a shorthorn we are talking about not a char or blonde cross.

and again...

 

[Mark H]

XAR,

How are my comments generalizes?  I am merely trying to make sure that the OP has considered whether his shorthorn  heifer can handle a charolais bull.  Given the inexperience of many of the posters on this board this is warranted. I do not know enough about this heifer to give an affirmation on whether she should be bred to charolais bull or not. If the wrong choice of bull is made then big problems at calving time can result resulting in possibly a dead calf.  In this case the OP has to make sure he is dong the right thing.  Using a char bul on heifer can pay off big but you have to understand the risks involved.
Fo specifics on when we would breed a non Charolais to a Charolais bull:  We breed heifers when they are nomrally 13 moths old and are grown out to weigh at least 900 LB at a year .  They are bred before the cows to give the heifers a couple more months to recover, We would use only bulls that  have BWT EPDs of -2.5 LBS or less the more proven the better.  Whe buying new bulls for natural service proven bulls are not usually available so you are taking a gamble using young bulls versus an AI bull. . When they calve at an average age of 22.5 months the heifers have continued to grow  and weigh from 1200 to 1400 LBS empty.  The calves fit in a range of 80 to 100 Lbs (very high end).  You might have some problems such as bad presentations or other problems on at most 5% of the heifer being calved.  It is up to you to provide the management to get live cows and calves out of that 5%. Is this specific enough for you?
Lastly I asked Bogart about Alstate to see if the breeds involved made any difference on the calf quality.  Does having a char cross , bonde cross or british breed used as dam make difference? I don't kow so I asked the question...

 

[Charguy]

I bought a couple of heifers bred to AllState last year and pulled them both. Nothing serious but he can throw them bigger. I'd stay away from using him on a first calver - especially a british one.

I shipped both calves - I wasn't impressed. Take it for what its worth (small sample size).

 

[RyanChandler]

XAR,

How are my comments generalizes?  I am merely trying to make sure that the OP has considered whether his shorthorn  heifer can handle a charolais bull.  Given the inexperience of many of the posters on this board this is warranted. I do not know enough about this heifer to give an affirmation on whether she should be bred to charolais bull or not. If the wrong choice of bull is made then big problems at calving time can result resulting in possibly a dead calf.  In this case the OP has to make sure he is dong the right thing.  Using a char bul on heifer can pay off big but you have to understand the risks involved.
Fo specifics on when we would breed a non Charolais to a Charolais bull:  We breed heifers when they are nomrally 13 moths old and are grown out to weigh at least 900 LB at a year .  They are bred before the cows to give the heifers a couple more months to recover, We would use only bulls that  have BWT EPDs of -2.5 LBS or less the more proven the better.  Whe buying new bulls for natural service proven bulls are not usually available so you are taking a gamble using young bulls versus an AI bull. . When they calve at an average age of 22.5 months the heifers have continued to grow  and weigh from 1200 to 1400 LBS empty.  The calves fit in a range of 80 to 100 Lbs (very high end).  You might have some problems such as bad presentations or other problems on at most 5% of the heifer being calved.  It is up to you to provide the management to get live cows and calves out of that 5%. Is this specific enough for you?
Lastly I asked Bogart about Alstate to see if the breeds involved made any difference on the calf quality.  Does having a char cross , bonde cross or british breed used as dam make difference? I don't kow so I asked the question...

With as much variation within the breeds as there are between them, I don't feel your generalizations help any. If anything, all the do is reinforce outdated stereotypes. What does, "...can handle a Charolais bull mean?"

1400lb 22month old heifers is a problem unto itself.

 

[Freddy]

We sell Charolais bulls regularly to commercial guys that use them on black and blk/wh face
heifers .  Calving problems cost you money in various ways and we don't need it ....We have
a proven Fastrack son F69 that we calve to all breeds, and hardly ever have any problems .What people call heifer
bulls varies a lot ,or different genetics ,as I have gotten older a heifer bull is one that don't have any more problems
then my Angus and Charolais cows ....Our club calf cows certain bulls we watch pretty close ...The environment with cold weather
also effects calving weights ....I also believe to much protein in the ration will definitely affect birth weight .......More  energy is necessary to
in colder climates to  maintain body condition !!!

 

[farmboy814]

Thanks for the replies. Remember, I am very new to this so, no, I'm not SET on using a charolais, on the site Im ordering through, has all state at a 7.0 for calving ease, I just figured that was good. I'm getting the semen through GENEX. Any bull suggestions from there?

 

[Freddy]

Genex is great place to buy quality semen, 7 isn't good score for calving ease IMO ,depends on birth weight EPD's also ...

 

[RyanChandler]

What's the minimum CE score you'd go w/ Freddy?  My bull's is a 8.1 w/ a .8 BW. I haven't used him on heifers but I wouldn't be opposed to.

 

[Mark H]

XBAR,

The main problem for evaluating the calving ease of your bull is that their is no data on calves from him on the AICA sire summary.  The EPDs you talk about are purely projected EPDs and that tells me M6 did a good job of planning this mating from an EPD point of view.  Your EPDs tell what the bull ought to be;  we need data from his calves to tell us what he actually is.
Key Allstate has good EPDs for CE and birth weight being in the top 20% for both traits according to the AICA 2014 fall sir summary data for active sires: http://www.charolaisusa.com/pdf/2013/12-20/Percentile_Rank_Active_Sires.pdf.  This makes him above average for thees traits but not a heifer bull or an elite bull for CE or birth weight.
By comparison Big Ben has CE of 11.0 (acc: 0.70) and BWT of -4.3 acc:  0.83) putting him in the top 5% for CE and 3% for BWT.
Accelerated genetics has a bull WR Polled Rex that has (CE 14.2 acc: 0.64 and BWT of -4.5 acc: 0.74) this puts him in the top 1% for CE and 3% for birth weight .
Cedardale Tyrant uses Canadian EPDs and has a CE of 100 (acc .41) -the highest ranking bull in Canadian summary; this goes with a -3.5 BWT ( acc: 0.76)  in the top 2% in the CCA summary. Semex has also sold 75,000 units of this bull worldwide and his semen is available sexed.
BY the way DR Revelation did not do so well on the 2014 fall summary with his CE dropping to 1.8 (acc: 0.51) the average score for active sires is 3.1 and BWT rising to -2.8 (acc: 0.78) but still in the top 7% of active sires form this trait.

 

[RyanChandler]

What possesses someone to use a bull like firewater or Big Ben when the quality of bulls like Cedardale Tyrant are available is beyond me.  He looks like an exceptional bull with unbelievable calving ease numbers. 

 

[Mark H]

XBAR,

Sarcasm aside we were talking about calving ease bulls. Big Ben, Rex and Tyrant are likely very close in claving ease given the variation in the CE numbers ithat esist in bth the AICA and CCA sure summaries. 
AI bulls are like tools you use the right one for the job.  These calving ease bulls are for one task-calving out heiers and firwater is for another producng show winners.  Two different tasks.
When can we look forward to getting some purebred calves out of your bull so that we can prove you herdsire against the promoted AI stud bulls?  An ad in the Charolais Journal once you collect him might get you some sales and then calves.

 

[CAB]

Link to Cedardale Tyrant 31T.

http://www.semex.com/beef/i?lang=en&beef=view&view2=MC310603

 

[RyanChandler]

XBAR,

Sarcasm aside we were talking about calving ease bulls. Big Ben, Rex and Tyrant are likely very close in claving ease given the variation in the CE numbers ithat esist in bth the AICA and CCA sure summaries. 
AI bulls are like tools you use the right one for the job.  These calving ease bulls are for one task-calving out heiers and firwater is for another producng show winners.  Two different tasks.
When can we look forward to getting some purebred calves out of your bull so that we can prove you herdsire against the promoted AI stud bulls?  An ad in the Charolais Journal once you collect him might get you some sales and then calves.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I really like the looks of the Tyrant bull and I would use him for substantially more than 'one task.'  In my opinion, this is the type of bull that judges should be selecting. Phenotypically, he blows the shallow-bodied Firewater away.

My bull Led is a good, solid bull but if I were in the purebred Charolais game (which I'm not), I feel like I could find a better option to breed purebred cattle.  But out of the hundred+ crossbred calves Led's thrown,  I'd say he's done a pretty good job at serving his purpose of injecting growth/bone/substance into his calves.